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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with dr. William bingston about his

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amazing research into hands-on healing I

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pulled my hands around the cages of the

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mice for about an hour a day and I

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expected at the time that healing if it

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were to work would be something

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analogous to radiation but instead the

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cancer started to grow and I thought it

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was failing tumors got bigger and bigger

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thought it wasn't working that may

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develop this ulceration on the tumor and

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I really thought it wasn't working and

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the ulceration grew and the tumor

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imploded and the mites were completely

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cured unprecedented medically never

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happened before for any reason let's

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finish the story right bill I mean so

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the world changes you received the Nobel

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Prize for medicine cancer treatments

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around the world are revolutionized and

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this is the most highly researched area

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of medicine right now right I got all

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that right except for the entire

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scenario yeah this is not can it take

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off as you as you suggest this isn't

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something that you know therefore we

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we've cured a bunch of mice therefore

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the cancer industry falters cancer

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and on this

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episode of skeptic oh we're going to

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look at some amazing research in the

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area of hands-on healing but I have to

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tell you what really attracted me to the

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work of dr. William Bengston is not so

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much the healing aspect of it but what

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his research means for science in

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general as I've said many times on this

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show the biggest hurdle to cross when we

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look at controversial science when we

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look at science that challenges the

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rather narrow worldview we've been

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painted in the biggest hurdle is how can

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this be how can this possibly be true

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and that to me is the question that kept

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popping into my mind as I delved into

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the work of dr. William Bengston how can

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this possibly be true here's my

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interview with dr. William Bengston

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today we welcome dr. William Bengston -

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skeptic Oh bill is a professor of

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sociology at st. Joseph's College in New

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York where he specializes in research

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methods and statistics and is the author

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of the energy cure unraveling the

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mystery of hands on healing and here's

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the real interesting part

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dr. Bankston is an amazing healer

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himself for the past 30 years has

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compiled a series of carefully

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controlled scientific experiments the

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challenge not only our ideas about

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healing and medicine but about energy

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about belief about science in general

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and how we practice it and a whole bunch

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of other stuff that I hope we can get to

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Bill welcome to skeptic oh thanks so

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much for joining me thanks for having me

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on Alex so bill your work is really

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quite amazing it's its paradigm busting

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mainly because you're such a stickler

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for running good experiments and trying

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to produce good reliable results and

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data yeah that's that's my passion

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so so let's get to work right and see

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what happens and let nature take its

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course and

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whatever I run an experiment I'm always

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amazed at the data never comes out the

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way I expected which pretty much means

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we don't really get this stuff yet and

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so if we can design some really tight

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experiments then nature will hopefully

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give up some of her secrets she's a

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sneaky one interesting hey tell us a

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little bit about your background your

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educational background particularly in

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sociology and that how that served you

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or maybe hasn't served you as you've

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tried to wrap your arms around this

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healing experience that you have

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well I'm traditionally trained in

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sociology which means you generally have

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a specialization or two and then it's

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pretty much assumed that you'll become

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technically proficient in designing

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studies and data analysis and things

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along those lines and I actually went a

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little bit farther down those lines I am

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kind of into interested in advanced

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statistical modeling and things along

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those lines I don't know that the

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sociology training other than focusing

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me and becoming very very rigorous

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really helped in healing I didn't I

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didn't see that as a career path it did

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help in terms of interpretation of some

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data though I have to speculate on that

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ice in my experiments I found that some

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anomalous results even within the

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context of the anomalies that I normally

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get from healing that sometimes the

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experimental and control groups become

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bound together and I've started to think

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about this in terms of maybe this has to

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do from a sociological standpoint of

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group boundaries sociologists are

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interested in groups and how they form

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and what they do and the consequences of

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it and in my experimental studies much

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to my surprise I discovered group

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boundaries that I didn't see coming so

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that sometimes there's I guess in the

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popular terminology that becomes almost

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like an entanglement among members of an

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experiment and the anomalies per

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even more anomalies you know that's

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that's interesting and that's a whole

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area we could get into it I think you

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know entanglement and also this idea of

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groups and it has to do with

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experimentally what that means in terms

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of what is a control group and how the

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placebo you even say might drift over

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into the into the group but what what

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also struck me and what I was getting at

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is you know here's a guy when you when

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you hear you're sure and I want you to

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tell folks a little bit about your story

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of how you got into healing you know I

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don't think many people would go great

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well let's run an experiment and let's

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run it this way you know the first thing

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because you have to be blown away at

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just what happens when you encounter

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this healing and yet your first thought

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was where's the data how do I produce

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the data how do I run an experiment so

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maybe let me run the tape backwards in

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start and tell folks a little bit about

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how you first encountered the healing

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phenomena and I guess you encountered it

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with with someone else not in yourself

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and then you got interested in it yeah I

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ran into a guy who was a who claimed

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that he had become spontaneously psychic

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and I was skeptical I always begin from

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a skeptical point of view and so I gave

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him a couple of things very informally

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to do readings on and such and i I

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couldn't trip him up it was it was very

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annoying so he would do reading some

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personal items wallets and rings and

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things like that and until too many

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detail things and and as you say I then

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default to what how am i deluding myself

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how can I make this effect go away so I

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designed for example a double-blind

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study in the hospital whereby patients

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coming in would sign a blank index card

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if they were silly enough to do that and

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that would be put into an opaque

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envelope which we would be put into

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another opaque envelope and then I would

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pick up the opaque envelopes and I

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wouldn't have any idea even if it was a

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male or a female I get I gave these to

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this this newly minted psychic and he

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would physical reading on them and then

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I probably broke a whole lot of laws and

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had somebody on the inside look at the

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the

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medical records to see if he was

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accurate bill what kind of reading would

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he give him what would he say if he has

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an envelope inside an envelope with an

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index card and just someone's name

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scribbled on it what kind of information

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could he give you oh he would give

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detailed information he would say you

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got a gallbladder problems something

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along those lines so he'd say the lungs

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are filled with fluid he would say

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there's pain in this area things along

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those lines there's a tumor that that is

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located here and and it was actually

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pretty startling when I went back and

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got the confirmation of this I actually

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thought I had him in a mistake but the

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hospital it made a mistake so the person

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that he had diagnosed was accurate the

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hospital had made a misdiagnosis they

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came back a month later and found out

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that you know his original idea was

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right okay yeah it was pretty nutty but

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I couldn't make the effect go away which

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was pretty annoying and and so I started

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to pay attention to this guy and and he

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was doing these physical readings this

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naturally morphed into the people he was

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doing physical readings on were claiming

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that the conditions were being helped on

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their end and both he and I thought that

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was nuts so let's say someone has a

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migraine headache and he does a reading

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on a person who has a migraine headache

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now he doesn't know that about migraine

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headache he's holding something of

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theirs and he would get that ache and

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and the people would say you know what

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such-and-such our my headache left and

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it was too coincidental it was at a

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particular hour he'd get it it would

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leave them and so we're both scratching

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our head going you know what could it

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mean you know one of the amazing things

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about this whole account this whole

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story of you and Bennett is that it's so

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counter anti New Age ish you know here

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are two guys who are saying what the

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heck's going on healing you're not gonna

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define guidance here you're not being

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you're not even looking in that

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direction and yet you're the data again

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as you say is just pulling you there so

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what's the next step for you and trying

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to make this technique operational and

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how did you get pulled into it

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well I could pull into it by having

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myself fixed which was my next layer of

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annoyance I had had a chronically bad

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back for a bunch of years and and I had

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previously been a competitive swimmer

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and had to give up competitive swimming

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because of the bad back and as this guy

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Bennett is is he and I are going through

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and we're doing these readings and such

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and and gathering all these silly

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anecdotes something [\h__\h] occurred to me

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you know you big dope you're in pain all

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the time ask the guy to try to help so I

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thought well maybe if I give him

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something he'll do a reading on me and

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maybe he can have my back he picked up

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the pain just as I thought of that I

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didn't actually give him an object and I

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said put your hands on my back and he

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said then and do what I said I don't

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know fix it and and so he put his hands

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on my back and quite astonishingly he

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did fix it I was the first person he

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ever deliberately healed with hands on

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and so we went from this and so what do

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we do with this and we started to watch

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people put hands on other people and see

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what happens and sometimes pain was

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alleviated sometimes fast sometimes not

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so fast and in in watching this on a

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couple hundred people

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it started to patterns started to emerge

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00:11:51,519 --> 00:11:48,800
that for example malignant growths

275
00:11:54,579 --> 00:11:51,529
responded very very quickly benign

276
00:11:56,650 --> 00:11:54,589
growths didn't so if he put his hands

277
00:11:59,230 --> 00:11:56,660
for example on a wart nothing will

278
00:12:02,439 --> 00:11:59,240
happen nothing at all if he put his

279
00:12:04,780 --> 00:12:02,449
hands on it on a lump that turned out

280
00:12:06,579 --> 00:12:04,790
through medical diagnosis to be

281
00:12:09,189 --> 00:12:06,589
malignant the thing would respond very

282
00:12:11,919 --> 00:12:09,199
very quickly and dramatically and so it

283
00:12:14,049 --> 00:12:11,929
turned out that some things he could do

284
00:12:15,460 --> 00:12:14,059
and some things he couldn't do and among

285
00:12:17,949 --> 00:12:15,470
the things he was particularly good at

286
00:12:19,929 --> 00:12:17,959
were malignant tumors and Bill let me

287
00:12:21,850 --> 00:12:19,939
interject here because from a little bit

288
00:12:26,199 --> 00:12:21,860
I know of your work you're very careful

289
00:12:29,169 --> 00:12:26,209
about drawing too many conclusions from

290
00:12:31,269 --> 00:12:29,179
what that means or what's behind that

291
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:31,279
you're more or less just seeing the

292
00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:33,410
patterns that exist and the personal

293
00:12:36,999 --> 00:12:34,910
experience made for example your healing

294
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:37,009
I mean you go on and you're a pretty

295
00:12:39,980 --> 00:12:37,680
darn

296
00:12:41,450 --> 00:12:39,990
sedative tennis player and I hear ping

297
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:41,460
pong player and all the rest so I mean

298
00:12:45,710 --> 00:12:43,290
your back is obviously healed you got

299
00:12:48,590 --> 00:12:45,720
the proof there but to tell us a little

300
00:12:51,170 --> 00:12:48,600
bit about you the experiments that

301
00:12:52,490 --> 00:12:51,180
you've run clinically and people need to

302
00:12:54,980 --> 00:12:52,500
know these are experiments you've run

303
00:12:57,199 --> 00:12:54,990
clinically in university labs I mean

304
00:12:58,910 --> 00:12:57,209
this isn't just a guy in as a kitchen

305
00:12:59,240 --> 00:12:58,920
you know I think people come in and do

306
00:13:00,829 --> 00:12:59,250
stuff

307
00:13:03,139 --> 00:13:00,839
I mean you've run some really pretty

308
00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:03,149
rigorous experiments tell us about some

309
00:13:06,170 --> 00:13:04,140
of those I think people will just be

310
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:06,180
amazed and and what you found in some of

311
00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:09,360
those and I guess obviously what what

312
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:10,950
you were getting to you know what drove

313
00:13:16,780 --> 00:13:12,690
you to design the experiment the way

314
00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:16,790
that you did well starting from these

315
00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:21,180
clinical observations and they were kind

316
00:13:26,810 --> 00:13:23,640
of case-by-case relatively haphazard

317
00:13:28,820 --> 00:13:26,820
observations at for example malignant

318
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:28,830
growths respond quickly and benign

319
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,570
growths don't respond so quickly or

320
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:32,480
sometimes not at all

321
00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:35,370
I thought to myself how do we how we're

322
00:13:40,750 --> 00:13:36,660
going to get a handle on this how are we

323
00:13:43,579 --> 00:13:40,760
going to go from spontaneous clinical

324
00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:43,589
haphazard kind of experience to very

325
00:13:47,449 --> 00:13:45,480
controlled condition something along the

326
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:47,459
lines of when I study I designed the

327
00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:50,130
double-blind study of of doing readings

328
00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:50,910
in a hospital

329
00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:52,980
what's the difference between hanging

330
00:13:56,150 --> 00:13:54,510
out in the living room and doing

331
00:13:59,510 --> 00:13:56,160
something under control conditions and

332
00:14:02,300 --> 00:13:59,520
sometimes there there have been in the

333
00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:02,310
past some problems trying to make this

334
00:14:08,060 --> 00:14:05,550
transition so the freedom that people

335
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:08,070
have in the normal world when they bring

336
00:14:11,930 --> 00:14:09,450
it into the lab sometimes it gets

337
00:14:14,449 --> 00:14:11,940
stymied and I wanted to find out if that

338
00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:14,459
would be the case so I wanted an

339
00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:18,020
absolute airtight no question about it

340
00:14:25,069 --> 00:14:22,320
test that if it worked you didn't have a

341
00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:25,079
viable counter hypothesis so we're not

342
00:14:29,650 --> 00:14:26,910
talking about as something that was

343
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:29,660
interesting but rather a slam dunk and

344
00:14:36,139 --> 00:14:32,160
since this guy seemed to be particularly

345
00:14:37,610 --> 00:14:36,149
good on malignant growths I thought well

346
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,620
let's see if we can get a study with

347
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:39,120
malignant growths under controlled

348
00:14:44,750 --> 00:14:41,730
laboratory conditions and so a friend of

349
00:14:49,250 --> 00:14:44,760
mine Dave Presley was associated with

350
00:14:51,079 --> 00:14:49,260
City University of New York in an

351
00:14:52,970 --> 00:14:51,089
academic professorship

352
00:14:55,489 --> 00:14:52,980
and he called it a bunch of favors there

353
00:14:57,410 --> 00:14:55,499
and he called it a bunch of favors with

354
00:14:59,960 --> 00:14:57,420
the biology department and said where

355
00:15:02,869 --> 00:14:59,970
can we get really an air-tight no

356
00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:02,879
question about it really tight

357
00:15:07,009 --> 00:15:04,920
experimental model and they were working

358
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,019
for 20 years on a particular mammary

359
00:15:12,670 --> 00:15:09,839
cancer in laboratory mice and the

360
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:12,680
laboratory cancer is in the in the mice

361
00:15:16,429 --> 00:15:14,730
they know exactly what's going to happen

362
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:16,439
there were literally thousands of

363
00:15:20,660 --> 00:15:18,959
published studies on these mice and they

364
00:15:23,389 --> 00:15:20,670
get injected with a particular form of

365
00:15:25,460 --> 00:15:23,399
cancer there particularly bred they're

366
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:25,470
actually pretty inbred and after they're

367
00:15:28,069 --> 00:15:26,850
injected you know exactly what's going

368
00:15:29,869 --> 00:15:28,079
to happen the tumor is going to grow

369
00:15:31,309 --> 00:15:29,879
it's going to be non-metastatic it's

370
00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:31,319
going to kill the mouse in a certain

371
00:15:36,860 --> 00:15:33,420
number of days and at the time we

372
00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:36,870
started this the record living Mouse was

373
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:40,230
27 days no mouse and literally thousands

374
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:41,850
of experiments had lived longer than

375
00:15:46,429 --> 00:15:43,920
twenty seven days after injection with

376
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:46,439
this particular mammary cancer and you

377
00:15:49,790 --> 00:15:48,240
know exactly how many mice would die on

378
00:15:51,999 --> 00:15:49,800
what particular day after injection

379
00:15:55,489 --> 00:15:52,009
because it's again very well documented

380
00:15:58,519 --> 00:15:55,499
found in labs all over the world so we

381
00:16:01,730 --> 00:15:58,529
said this is perfect the mice presumably

382
00:16:04,879 --> 00:16:01,740
don't believe much maybe this has

383
00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:04,889
nothing to his belief we didn't believe

384
00:16:08,660 --> 00:16:07,649
much we were just observing maybe it's

385
00:16:10,910 --> 00:16:08,670
doesn't make any difference for the

386
00:16:12,199 --> 00:16:10,920
healer or the Healey bleeps let's find

387
00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:12,209
out if there's a real underlying

388
00:16:18,319 --> 00:16:15,809
biological mechanism going on so it

389
00:16:20,629 --> 00:16:18,329
turned out that this original guy Ben

390
00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:20,639
was not particularly interested in doing

391
00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:22,350
experiments I had dragged him from labs

392
00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:25,350
to labs and I think I'd pushed too many

393
00:16:29,989 --> 00:16:27,420
buttons and he kind of backed out and

394
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:29,999
then I was left with we have

395
00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:32,490
experimental mice and we have no healer

396
00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:37,110
that was a dilemma it was actually

397
00:16:41,869 --> 00:16:40,350
bordering on panic and since I had spent

398
00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:41,879
the most time with this guy

399
00:16:45,710 --> 00:16:44,160
Krenzel II suggested will you do it and

400
00:16:47,059 --> 00:16:45,720
I thought me I'm not a healer you know

401
00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:47,069
you introduced me as somebody who has

402
00:16:50,090 --> 00:16:48,990
healing ability I've actually never

403
00:16:52,249 --> 00:16:50,100
thought of myself as someone with

404
00:16:54,590 --> 00:16:52,259
healing ability it's just this stuff

405
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:54,600
happens when you do this stuff it's not

406
00:16:58,220 --> 00:16:56,370
I don't I don't think it's not my

407
00:16:59,660 --> 00:16:58,230
identity in any way shape or form so

408
00:17:01,639 --> 00:16:59,670
I'll just kind of hang around and you

409
00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:01,649
can produce healing if you need to so I

410
00:17:04,850 --> 00:17:03,929
put my hands around the cages of the

411
00:17:07,549 --> 00:17:04,860
mice for

412
00:17:10,669 --> 00:17:07,559
about an hour a day and I expected at

413
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:10,679
the time that healing if it were to work

414
00:17:15,819 --> 00:17:12,809
would be something analogous to

415
00:17:19,610 --> 00:17:15,829
radiation so if you take mice and you

416
00:17:22,370 --> 00:17:19,620
radiate them you can kill the radiated

417
00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:22,380
cells and I thought well if we get these

418
00:17:27,650 --> 00:17:24,750
mice close enough to their injection

419
00:17:30,190 --> 00:17:27,660
time and we zap them as it were with

420
00:17:32,419 --> 00:17:30,200
healing then then maybe something like

421
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:32,429
radiation occurs and we're killing the

422
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:33,840
cancer or you know something along those

423
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:35,850
lines but instead the cancer started to

424
00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:38,370
grow and I thought it was failing and so

425
00:17:42,049 --> 00:17:40,710
the tumors grew and I said well didn't

426
00:17:45,409 --> 00:17:42,059
work you know we gave a shot didn't work

427
00:17:47,299 --> 00:17:45,419
and so it goes and and I said let's call

428
00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:47,309
it off why I put the mice through this

429
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:49,740
and I got talked into well go a little

430
00:17:54,289 --> 00:17:50,250
longer

431
00:17:56,690 --> 00:17:54,299
growing and I kept thinking well this

432
00:17:59,630 --> 00:17:56,700
doesn't work and I kept reading anyway

433
00:18:01,480 --> 00:17:59,640
tumors got bigger and bigger thought it

434
00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:01,490
wasn't working that may develop this

435
00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:03,809
ulceration on the tumor and I really

436
00:18:08,299 --> 00:18:05,520
thought it wasn't working and the

437
00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:08,309
ulceration grew and the tumor imploded

438
00:18:13,610 --> 00:18:11,360
and the mice were completely cured

439
00:18:16,370 --> 00:18:13,620
unprecedented medically in this

440
00:18:18,350 --> 00:18:16,380
particular biological experiment with

441
00:18:21,409 --> 00:18:18,360
these particular mice right now never

442
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:21,419
happened before for any reason so the

443
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:23,610
world's longest living Mouse up to me

444
00:18:28,940 --> 00:18:26,160
was 27 days and it went through this

445
00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:28,950
process of growth than ulceration and

446
00:18:34,340 --> 00:18:32,190
implosion and the mice were cured i used

447
00:18:36,409 --> 00:18:34,350
to say they remitted but i buy all this

448
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:36,419
time that's the wrong word because

449
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:38,970
remitted means a reduction in symptoms

450
00:18:45,140 --> 00:18:42,210
or a temporary disappearance these mice

451
00:18:46,789 --> 00:18:45,150
are cured for life so we watch them and

452
00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:46,799
we relieve them for two years and they

453
00:18:50,659 --> 00:18:48,510
live out their normal lifespan hanging

454
00:18:53,030 --> 00:18:50,669
out being completely happy and it goes

455
00:18:54,590 --> 00:18:53,040
even further than that we've rejected

456
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:54,600
them with the cancer the cancer won't

457
00:18:58,549 --> 00:18:55,610
take anymore

458
00:19:00,590 --> 00:18:58,559
so mice that are cured are cured for

459
00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:00,600
life you know one of the things when you

460
00:19:06,409 --> 00:19:03,809
hear that story in the unbelievab ility

461
00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:06,419
of it it takes you in so many different

462
00:19:11,150 --> 00:19:08,760
ways I mean what let's finish the story

463
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:11,160
right though I mean so the world changes

464
00:19:16,220 --> 00:19:13,890
you receive the Nobel Prize for medicine

465
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:16,230
cancer treatments around the world are

466
00:19:22,790 --> 00:19:18,690
revolutionized and this is the most

467
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:22,800
highly researched area of Medicine right

468
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:26,160
now right I got all that right except

469
00:19:30,620 --> 00:19:28,410
for the entire scenario yeah this is not

470
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:30,630
that can it take off as you as you

471
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:33,210
suggest it that that would be my guess

472
00:19:35,450 --> 00:19:33,690
yeah

473
00:19:37,250 --> 00:19:35,460
so this is this isn't something that you

474
00:19:38,990 --> 00:19:37,260
know therefore we we've cured a bunch of

475
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:39,000
mice therefore the cancer industry

476
00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:41,250
falters tenth we got to find out what's

477
00:19:46,670 --> 00:19:43,380
going on and that's where it gets even

478
00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:46,680
more challenging what do you think is

479
00:19:51,470 --> 00:19:49,350
going on well I've replicated this

480
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:51,480
experiment now about a dozen times

481
00:19:58,250 --> 00:19:55,650
and I use sometimes not always but I use

482
00:20:01,600 --> 00:19:58,260
sometimes other people who have no

483
00:20:03,740 --> 00:20:01,610
experience in healing and who are all

484
00:20:05,630 --> 00:20:03,750
skeptics in the real sense of the word

485
00:20:07,550 --> 00:20:05,640
tell us a little bit about your process

486
00:20:09,950 --> 00:20:07,560
in terms of screening these folks I

487
00:20:13,010 --> 00:20:09,960
think it's really funny but but also

488
00:20:14,930 --> 00:20:13,020
interesting what I was able to cure a

489
00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:14,940
bunch of mice I thought to myself well

490
00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:17,760
obviously this is pretty curious and the

491
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:19,950
first thing we need to do is is see if

492
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:23,520
this replicates we did do some flaw in

493
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:25,520
the procedure was it a fluke what and

494
00:20:30,890 --> 00:20:28,080
and there was in my mind also a

495
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:30,900
lingering fear what if what if I can do

496
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:33,090
it and other people can't I mean that

497
00:20:39,410 --> 00:20:34,650
would be curious but it wouldn't be very

498
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:39,420
useful so what I did is I decided to get

499
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:41,610
some people who had no experience in

500
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:43,410
this train them in the healing

501
00:20:47,450 --> 00:20:45,570
techniques that uh that Ben and I had

502
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:47,460
worked out and see what happens when

503
00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:51,210
they do it and I went to a number of

504
00:20:57,620 --> 00:20:55,230
students um and said I'd like to do a

505
00:20:59,960 --> 00:20:57,630
healing experiment if they responded to

506
00:21:01,700 --> 00:20:59,970
me gee that's that's wonderful I like

507
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:01,710
the stuff or I know about this stuff and

508
00:21:07,610 --> 00:21:04,170
all that I said well thank you for your

509
00:21:10,370 --> 00:21:07,620
interest and I left I didn't want them I

510
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:10,380
didn't want someone who knew I didn't

511
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:12,810
want someone who was already into he I

512
00:21:17,690 --> 00:21:15,690
wanted a really a blank slate and I

513
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:17,700
wanted someone who my actual criteria

514
00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:20,610
was they either had to laugh in my face

515
00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:22,860
when I asked him what I when I told him

516
00:21:29,570 --> 00:21:25,310
what I want him to do or they had to

517
00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:29,580
express extreme skepticism something

518
00:21:32,930 --> 00:21:30,870
along lines that no really what do you

519
00:21:35,299 --> 00:21:32,940
want me to do and I'd say I'm gonna

520
00:21:37,489 --> 00:21:35,309
teaching for about six weeks on how to

521
00:21:38,989 --> 00:21:37,499
do some healing techniques and then

522
00:21:39,739 --> 00:21:38,999
you're going to get cancerous mice and

523
00:21:41,629 --> 00:21:39,749
you're going to put your hands around

524
00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:41,639
the cage for an hour a day and we're

525
00:21:45,379 --> 00:21:43,049
going to see what happens and they'd go

526
00:21:46,729 --> 00:21:45,389
no really what do you want me to do one

527
00:21:49,789 --> 00:21:46,739
of the things that's so great about this

528
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:49,799
is that you're coming at it from such a

529
00:21:53,779 --> 00:21:51,840
different perspective than we normally

530
00:21:56,690 --> 00:21:53,789
hear again kind of contrasting it with

531
00:22:00,320 --> 00:21:56,700
so much of the new-age --is-- kind of

532
00:22:01,879 --> 00:22:00,330
ideas about healing and that's that you

533
00:22:03,349 --> 00:22:01,889
know you're not even what you said a

534
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:03,359
minute ago bill you know you're not even

535
00:22:07,129 --> 00:22:05,369
invested in the term healer you know you

536
00:22:08,629 --> 00:22:07,139
feel a little uncomfortable like I I'm

537
00:22:10,009 --> 00:22:08,639
not a healer you know this thing just

538
00:22:11,629 --> 00:22:10,019
kind of happened I send this experiment

539
00:22:14,629 --> 00:22:11,639
had to do it you took the same approach

540
00:22:16,430 --> 00:22:14,639
in turning this into some kind of

541
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:16,440
methodology a technique that you could

542
00:22:20,869 --> 00:22:18,570
train other people with just again

543
00:22:22,909 --> 00:22:20,879
following the data and in the process of

544
00:22:25,969 --> 00:22:22,919
doing that I think you really give us a

545
00:22:28,879 --> 00:22:25,979
whole fresh look on assumptions that

546
00:22:31,669 --> 00:22:28,889
we've had about alternative medicine and

547
00:22:34,190 --> 00:22:31,679
healing in particular any thoughts on on

548
00:22:37,460 --> 00:22:34,200
some of that on some of the the new age'

549
00:22:40,669 --> 00:22:37,470
SH beliefs that you're kind of stomping

550
00:22:42,229 --> 00:22:40,679
on here well to be honest I don't know

551
00:22:45,859 --> 00:22:42,239
that much about healing

552
00:22:48,529 --> 00:22:45,869
I don't know comparative healing systems

553
00:22:50,060 --> 00:22:48,539
and I've never studied healing and you

554
00:22:52,489 --> 00:22:50,070
know bill because it's out there the

555
00:22:54,529 --> 00:22:52,499
idea of a positive mental attitude the

556
00:22:56,899 --> 00:22:54,539
idea of visualizing those little white

557
00:22:58,999 --> 00:22:56,909
cells and red cells and having this

558
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:59,009
little war you know all these ideas

559
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:01,919
about about belief and even if we want

560
00:23:05,629 --> 00:23:03,690
to pull it over into the spiritual realm

561
00:23:07,999 --> 00:23:05,639
hey at your local hospital there there's

562
00:23:10,369 --> 00:23:08,009
the prayer circle group right down the

563
00:23:12,859 --> 00:23:10,379
hall that's you know trying to marshal

564
00:23:14,930 --> 00:23:12,869
all this spiritual energy behind it so

565
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:14,940
you know out in the air there's a lot of

566
00:23:19,399 --> 00:23:17,970
these other ideas that your research

567
00:23:22,999 --> 00:23:19,409
really kind of flies in the face of a

568
00:23:25,509 --> 00:23:23,009
lot of that yeah it may come really just

569
00:23:28,009 --> 00:23:25,519
from my personal orientation and and

570
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:28,019
generically belief scares me

571
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:30,570
belief scares me and believers scare me

572
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:34,080
and by that I mean that sounds extreme

573
00:23:39,710 --> 00:23:36,210
but it actually is the case that that

574
00:23:42,019 --> 00:23:39,720
believers scare me because they they

575
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:42,029
believe and and they have the delusion

576
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:44,970
that they had the truth and I don't care

577
00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:46,530
what it is that they think they

578
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:49,500
or think they had the truth about I they

579
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:51,600
just scare me because I don't know

580
00:23:58,279 --> 00:23:54,690
anybody who has any truth and so you

581
00:24:03,049 --> 00:23:58,289
have been believers a tendency to act in

582
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:03,059
defense of those beliefs and so I for

583
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:05,610
example had spoken to skeptical

584
00:24:10,430 --> 00:24:08,850
organizations so I've been invited by

585
00:24:13,580 --> 00:24:10,440
you know the such-and-such skeptic

586
00:24:15,740 --> 00:24:13,590
Society and and I usually begin to talk

587
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:15,750
to a skeptic society by saying I'm

588
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:17,690
probably the only skeptic in the room

589
00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:21,360
that gets Amal Haram fee and they fold

590
00:24:25,250 --> 00:24:22,980
their arms and legs and contort their

591
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:25,260
faces and things as nowhere the skeptic

592
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:26,850
Society say you're not really skeptics

593
00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:29,370
you're believers you already believe

594
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:31,710
that the things I haven't yet said are

595
00:24:36,289 --> 00:24:32,330
wrong

596
00:24:38,180 --> 00:24:36,299
how do those talks go well they her up

597
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:38,190
hunger her onsen and Rompin and again

598
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:40,559
they go into pretzel mode and contort

599
00:24:43,669 --> 00:24:42,480
themselves and and it's a very

600
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:43,679
interesting this is an interesting

601
00:24:49,010 --> 00:24:46,650
social psychological phenomenon because

602
00:24:51,740 --> 00:24:49,020
I simply present my data and and so you

603
00:24:53,330 --> 00:24:51,750
know I have mice I have many experiments

604
00:24:55,730 --> 00:24:53,340
I have many experiments and all sorts of

605
00:24:57,409 --> 00:24:55,740
things many dozens and dozens of

606
00:24:59,149 --> 00:24:57,419
experiments and a variety of things in

607
00:25:01,370 --> 00:24:59,159
healing and and the experiments and

608
00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:01,380
experiments so the issue is have I done

609
00:25:05,210 --> 00:25:03,510
something wrong in which case I'm

610
00:25:06,919 --> 00:25:05,220
absolutely interested in what I did

611
00:25:08,270 --> 00:25:06,929
wrong if I haven't done anything wrong

612
00:25:10,669 --> 00:25:08,280
and these are the results and it's a

613
00:25:12,620 --> 00:25:10,679
reliable phenomenon what's your beef and

614
00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:12,630
so they're they're contouring and they

615
00:25:14,510 --> 00:25:14,190
can't they can't find a flaw in what I

616
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:14,520
did

617
00:25:18,830 --> 00:25:17,039
and sometimes their oncologists in the

618
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:18,840
audience and sometimes there's there's

619
00:25:22,370 --> 00:25:20,730
positions of various stripe and

620
00:25:24,860 --> 00:25:22,380
sometimes there's biologists and

621
00:25:26,330 --> 00:25:24,870
sometimes and nobody can find a flaw and

622
00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:26,340
I'm saying hey if you can find a flaw

623
00:25:29,779 --> 00:25:28,320
you know I would say thank you you know

624
00:25:31,940 --> 00:25:29,789
if I screwed up I didn't know I screwed

625
00:25:34,850 --> 00:25:31,950
up but if I did show me how and I'll

626
00:25:36,350 --> 00:25:34,860
make it better and so I present the

627
00:25:38,419 --> 00:25:36,360
stuff and they can't find a hole in the

628
00:25:40,820 --> 00:25:38,429
stuff that I do and then the interesting

629
00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:40,830
social psychological phenomenon is since

630
00:25:45,919 --> 00:25:43,140
this is a skeptic society it's really

631
00:25:48,049 --> 00:25:45,929
not it's a for society but it since it's

632
00:25:49,669 --> 00:25:48,059
a skeptic society they have a certain

633
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:49,679
amount of social pressure they're not

634
00:25:54,980 --> 00:25:53,610
allowed to go Wow right they're not

635
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:54,990
allowed to convert because they have to

636
00:25:59,160 --> 00:25:56,730
defend their beliefs because they're not

637
00:26:01,230 --> 00:25:59,170
skeptical they're believers and

638
00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:01,240
what happens at the end is I'm cleaning

639
00:26:05,550 --> 00:26:03,280
up or doing this or that and the whole

640
00:26:08,220 --> 00:26:05,560
will start to thin out and such and and

641
00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:08,230
one by one they look around and to see

642
00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:10,960
if it's safe and they come up to me and

643
00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:13,900
they go that was great and then they run

644
00:26:19,590 --> 00:26:16,920
off because they can't be seaton

645
00:26:22,170 --> 00:26:19,600
speaking to the crazy guy well you'd

646
00:26:25,170 --> 00:26:22,180
probably have the same reaction if you

647
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:25,180
went down to the local church group as

648
00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:27,370
well you'd have this thing the same

649
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:29,350
thing people looking around and wanting

650
00:26:34,010 --> 00:26:31,450
to know if it's okay to even entertain

651
00:26:37,050 --> 00:26:34,020
these thoughts and then most of them

652
00:26:39,390 --> 00:26:37,060
deciding that it's not and a few brave

653
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:39,400
souls walking up and set in telling you

654
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:42,610
their their story of how how it relates

655
00:26:48,180 --> 00:26:45,610
to them yeah but there are there are

656
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:48,190
many more in my my experience or many

657
00:26:52,830 --> 00:26:50,530
more believers and skeptics and they

658
00:26:54,810 --> 00:26:52,840
just believe different things so the New

659
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:54,820
Age folks are believers that's what I've

660
00:26:59,370 --> 00:26:57,330
run into again I'm not I don't mean to

661
00:27:01,170 --> 00:26:59,380
generalize to everybody but my

662
00:27:03,690 --> 00:27:01,180
experience is there's a lot of believers

663
00:27:05,850 --> 00:27:03,700
among New Age folks and there's a lot of

664
00:27:07,950 --> 00:27:05,860
believers among allegedly skeptical

665
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:07,960
societies and they simply believe

666
00:27:13,230 --> 00:27:10,690
different things and my question becomes

667
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:13,240
well if you're simply defending your

668
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:17,050
belief what's the point for openers but

669
00:27:21,570 --> 00:27:19,690
secondly I think an interesting question

670
00:27:23,550 --> 00:27:21,580
would be what would it take for anyone

671
00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:23,560
on any side of any fence to convert

672
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:25,750
right you want to talk about coal

673
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:28,090
psychology and sociology I mean you've

674
00:27:33,450 --> 00:27:30,310
just jumped right into this soup there

675
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:33,460
yeah so if you are a non-believer in

676
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:34,480
this stuff what would it take to

677
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:35,890
convince you otherwise if you're a

678
00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:37,600
believer won't it take you to to flip

679
00:27:41,790 --> 00:27:40,180
again to non-belief you know and this

680
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:41,800
could be it doesn't have to be for

681
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:43,360
healing this could be for absolutely

682
00:27:46,980 --> 00:27:45,490
anything so I mean right now it's

683
00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:46,990
politically correct to believe in global

684
00:27:53,310 --> 00:27:49,480
warming hey more to the point in terms

685
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:53,320
of SSC it's it's politically correct in

686
00:27:59,010 --> 00:27:56,320
the United States to believe in biotic

687
00:28:00,210 --> 00:27:59,020
oil and peak oil yeah and I mean this is

688
00:28:02,940 --> 00:28:00,220
one of the first articles I remember

689
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:02,950
reading in the SSC the Society for

690
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:05,440
scientific exploration journal it was

691
00:28:09,660 --> 00:28:07,450
years ago and it opened my eyes to you

692
00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:09,670
know there's over 200 peer-reviewed

693
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:12,430
scientific we published articles

694
00:28:17,550 --> 00:28:14,650
in the Russia in Russia in the former

695
00:28:19,950 --> 00:28:17,560
Soviet Union on a biotic oil the idea

696
00:28:21,570 --> 00:28:19,960
that oil is created naturally and they

697
00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:21,580
go with that assumption they drill down

698
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:23,230
a lot further than there could ever be

699
00:28:26,460 --> 00:28:25,090
any dinosaurs and they they're producing

700
00:28:29,070 --> 00:28:26,470
more oil than anyone else in the world

701
00:28:30,420 --> 00:28:29,080
yeah it's interesting can I be open you

702
00:28:32,850 --> 00:28:30,430
know we're probably wrong about almost

703
00:28:35,130 --> 00:28:32,860
everything we believe but the real point

704
00:28:38,340 --> 00:28:35,140
of all that is just you know these ideas

705
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:38,350
that run counter to these cherished

706
00:28:44,490 --> 00:28:40,960
beliefs that we either have personally

707
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:44,500
or these societal beliefs that are kind

708
00:28:50,370 --> 00:28:46,930
of ingrained in the machinery of the way

709
00:28:53,130 --> 00:28:50,380
things work are very very hard to

710
00:28:54,390 --> 00:28:53,140
overcome so I mean I guess I have to

711
00:28:58,500 --> 00:28:54,400
push a little bit against that whole

712
00:29:00,540 --> 00:28:58,510
anomalistic psychology crap that I I see

713
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:00,550
out there is that you know gee why do

714
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:02,890
people believe weird things and stuff

715
00:29:06,210 --> 00:29:03,970
like that I mean that has gone

716
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:06,220
absolutely nowhere or it's been

717
00:29:12,150 --> 00:29:08,650
counterproductive to really trying to

718
00:29:15,510 --> 00:29:12,160
understand in a deeper way what's really

719
00:29:18,660 --> 00:29:15,520
going on so right I don't know but why

720
00:29:21,540 --> 00:29:18,670
is this the Society for scientific

721
00:29:23,820 --> 00:29:21,550
exploration an organization that you are

722
00:29:26,460 --> 00:29:23,830
the president of currently and is a very

723
00:29:28,860 --> 00:29:26,470
serious scientific organization I mean

724
00:29:31,020 --> 00:29:28,870
the mere fact that it's necessary and

725
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:31,030
the mere fact that it covers such a

726
00:29:35,580 --> 00:29:34,210
broad range of topics and that was my

727
00:29:37,830 --> 00:29:35,590
whole reason for getting off on the

728
00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:37,840
biotic oil thing you know I mean it

729
00:29:42,060 --> 00:29:40,270
covers a whole range of topics the fact

730
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:42,070
that it's even necessary is is a little

731
00:29:46,380 --> 00:29:44,530
bit depressing a little bit frustrating

732
00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:46,390
alright I would I would completely agree

733
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:46,990
the

734
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:53,440
look at it Society for scientific

735
00:29:59,640 --> 00:29:56,290
exploration or scientific exploration

736
00:30:02,270 --> 00:29:59,650
org is as you point out a group of

737
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:02,280
people who are serious about research uh

738
00:30:07,740 --> 00:30:05,200
they're not going to they don't sit

739
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:07,750
together and just talk about things in

740
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:09,840
the abstract you got to show me the data

741
00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:13,290
and they come from all sorts of fields

742
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:17,110
so the the actual society was founded by

743
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:20,170
a combination of folks like the head of

744
00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:22,330
astrophysics at Stanford the Dean of

745
00:30:26,940 --> 00:30:23,950
engineering and Princeton the head of

746
00:30:28,950 --> 00:30:26,950
astronomy at University of Virginia

747
00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:28,960
and folks like that who came together

748
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:32,399
and said there's too much scientific

749
00:30:37,289 --> 00:30:35,710
straightjacket activity going on you're

750
00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:37,299
allowed to look at certain things you're

751
00:30:41,009 --> 00:30:38,740
not allowed to look at other things and

752
00:30:44,549 --> 00:30:41,019
it turns out that a whole lot of

753
00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:44,559
scientists have almost like a closet

754
00:30:49,740 --> 00:30:48,070
life so on in the public in the

755
00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:49,750
peer-reviewed journals in their

756
00:30:54,419 --> 00:30:52,809
conventional day job you're only allowed

757
00:30:56,549 --> 00:30:54,429
to talk about certain things and there

758
00:30:59,009 --> 00:30:56,559
is a Canon and you're supposed to buy

759
00:31:00,990 --> 00:30:59,019
into it and you got to toe the party

760
00:31:02,190 --> 00:31:01,000
line and if you want to get grants you

761
00:31:03,330 --> 00:31:02,200
better be getting them for the things

762
00:31:06,419 --> 00:31:03,340
you're allowed to get grants for

763
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:06,429
etcetera etc and these very very brave

764
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:08,710
individuals who had already been

765
00:31:14,369 --> 00:31:11,289
extraordinarily successful in their day

766
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:14,379
job careers recognized that there were

767
00:31:18,269 --> 00:31:16,090
other people like them who also had

768
00:31:21,690 --> 00:31:18,279
interest in things that you weren't

769
00:31:24,139 --> 00:31:21,700
supposed to talk about and so they

770
00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:24,149
talked about healing they talked about

771
00:31:29,549 --> 00:31:27,460
UFOs they talked about all sorts of

772
00:31:33,210 --> 00:31:29,559
stuff and said well let's let's get

773
00:31:34,830 --> 00:31:33,220
together and see if we can database have

774
00:31:39,570 --> 00:31:34,840
a discussion about things which are off

775
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:39,580
limits and so in order to do this they

776
00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:41,289
created this Society for scientific

777
00:31:48,149 --> 00:31:44,529
exploration which is primarily academics

778
00:31:50,850 --> 00:31:48,159
but but folks who are not academics can

779
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:50,860
also join as associate members and we

780
00:31:56,220 --> 00:31:53,110
have things like a peer-reviewed journal

781
00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:56,230
a journal scientific exploration we have

782
00:32:00,480 --> 00:31:58,090
annual conferences we just had one in

783
00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:00,490
Boulder in June about to have one in

784
00:32:07,619 --> 00:32:05,470
Ireland in October and we get together

785
00:32:08,879 --> 00:32:07,629
and these are data based presentations

786
00:32:12,450 --> 00:32:08,889
on stuff you're not supposed to talk

787
00:32:16,980 --> 00:32:12,460
about and we have a little you know

788
00:32:18,810 --> 00:32:16,990
inside dictum there that says if you're

789
00:32:21,869 --> 00:32:18,820
an academic and you want to look at this

790
00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:21,879
stuff and you want to take a chance on

791
00:32:26,669 --> 00:32:23,710
some of this stuff and want to actually

792
00:32:30,539 --> 00:32:26,679
do research and gather data first get

793
00:32:33,210 --> 00:32:30,549
tenure you're right okay so I actually

794
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:33,220
had a couple of years ago I was given a

795
00:32:39,060 --> 00:32:36,490
talk and some newly minted PhD from

796
00:32:39,610 --> 00:32:39,070
Australia came up to me and said well

797
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:39,620
your stuff

798
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:41,120
the most amazing thing I've ever seen I

799
00:32:44,620 --> 00:32:42,410
want to work with you I want to study

800
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:44,630
this I want to and I said get away from

801
00:32:49,060 --> 00:32:47,570
me get tenure so what did me get away

802
00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:49,070
from me I want to devote my life to this

803
00:32:54,220 --> 00:32:50,809
I said get away from me I said I'm not

804
00:32:56,530 --> 00:32:54,230
gonna wreck your career comeback and so

805
00:32:59,200 --> 00:32:56,540
he kept pushing him away pushing away I

806
00:33:00,730 --> 00:32:59,210
said first get tenure and he said you

807
00:33:03,370 --> 00:33:00,740
don't understand how important this is

808
00:33:05,410 --> 00:33:03,380
and I said I really do and that's why

809
00:33:07,270 --> 00:33:05,420
I'm telling you yeah I'm kind of you

810
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:07,280
know I've been in it for a while and I

811
00:33:11,710 --> 00:33:09,410
said but you got to get away from me

812
00:33:13,690 --> 00:33:11,720
because you you I mean you got your PhD

813
00:33:16,690 --> 00:33:13,700
you know 20 minutes ago and I'm not

814
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:16,700
going to screw your career so he got

815
00:33:20,980 --> 00:33:18,410
really mad because I wouldn't miss and

816
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:20,990
that didn't about a year later I got a

817
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:24,170
an email from him and he said I get it

818
00:33:28,270 --> 00:33:26,330
now thank you and he said I'll see it

819
00:33:31,660 --> 00:33:28,280
I'll see you in a few years that's

820
00:33:34,650 --> 00:33:31,670
that's both sad and and interesting at

821
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:34,660
the same time so dr. banks and that's

822
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:36,890
fantastic and I really encourage people

823
00:33:42,250 --> 00:33:39,890
to explore the sse more and as you

824
00:33:45,010 --> 00:33:42,260
mentioned there's in addition to the

825
00:33:47,669 --> 00:33:45,020
quarterly more scholarly publication

826
00:33:50,410 --> 00:33:47,679
there's also an online magazine

827
00:33:52,030 --> 00:33:50,420
formatted kind of publication that they

828
00:33:53,830 --> 00:33:52,040
do that's really accessible and really

829
00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:53,840
great so please check that out but let's

830
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:56,240
get back that's called edge science and

831
00:34:01,240 --> 00:33:58,130
that comes out quarterly and it's it's

832
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:01,250
kind of a it is it's a magazine you know

833
00:34:07,060 --> 00:34:04,610
written more in English about some of

834
00:34:09,790 --> 00:34:07,070
these interesting topics great but but I

835
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:09,800
do want to bring people back to some of

836
00:34:13,060 --> 00:34:11,690
the other experiments you've done

837
00:34:14,740 --> 00:34:13,070
because I think they're just going to be

838
00:34:17,950 --> 00:34:14,750
fascinating and I hope they're gonna

839
00:34:20,379 --> 00:34:17,960
inspire people to really dig into this

840
00:34:21,850 --> 00:34:20,389
and challenge some of their beliefs that

841
00:34:25,290 --> 00:34:21,860
they might have a couple of them I want

842
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:25,300
you to touch on the MRI envelope

843
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:27,290
experiment I think you know what I mean

844
00:34:32,169 --> 00:34:30,110
yeah this is interesting

845
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:32,179
among the the interesting questions to

846
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:36,169
me in is is what are the conditions

847
00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:40,639
under which healing occurs what makes it

848
00:34:45,669 --> 00:34:43,520
stronger what makes it weaker what

849
00:34:48,730 --> 00:34:45,679
happens to the healer what happens to

850
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:48,740
the Healey things along those lines and

851
00:34:52,889 --> 00:34:50,330
turns out we don't know a whole lot

852
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:52,899
about this stuff what are the this day

853
00:34:57,620 --> 00:34:55,210
of consciousness matter do there's a

854
00:35:00,450 --> 00:34:57,630
particular sense of awareness matter

855
00:35:01,740 --> 00:35:00,460
ever could be even be something you you

856
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:01,750
were talking about earlier this belief

857
00:35:05,579 --> 00:35:04,450
matter you know it turns out that as far

858
00:35:07,950 --> 00:35:05,589
as I can tell belief doesn't matter at

859
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:07,960
all except maybe I think to slightly

860
00:35:13,289 --> 00:35:10,930
[\h__\h] healing I'm not sure about that

861
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:13,299
but but I don't think there's a net gain

862
00:35:18,420 --> 00:35:15,250
I don't know how much there is a loss

863
00:35:20,730 --> 00:35:18,430
for belief I think a neutral stance is

864
00:35:23,519 --> 00:35:20,740
the preferable stance to maximize

865
00:35:26,730 --> 00:35:23,529
healing but what we were interested in

866
00:35:28,319 --> 00:35:26,740
is well what happens I mean first of all

867
00:35:31,319 --> 00:35:28,329
it's a difficult problem to figure out

868
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:31,329
what's the right question to ask and we

869
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:34,720
we have a brain bias so we tend to like

870
00:35:39,210 --> 00:35:37,359
to look at brains and think well maybe

871
00:35:41,309 --> 00:35:39,220
there's a car lit in the brain something

872
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:41,319
along those lines so I've done a number

873
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:43,450
of experiments along these lines with

874
00:35:47,490 --> 00:35:45,250
and just following along with the brain

875
00:35:50,370 --> 00:35:47,500
bias so I published in the journal

876
00:35:55,980 --> 00:35:50,380
assignment big exploration I think in

877
00:35:59,309 --> 00:35:55,990
2010 a phase-locking of two brains at a

878
00:36:03,150 --> 00:35:59,319
distance and what that really means is

879
00:36:06,829 --> 00:36:03,160
we have synchronized EEG s and we're

880
00:36:09,059 --> 00:36:06,839
sampling in nineteen leads on each head

881
00:36:11,549 --> 00:36:09,069
every five hundredths of a second we

882
00:36:14,099 --> 00:36:11,559
have this enormous database and it turns

883
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:14,109
out that you can easily easily but you

884
00:36:20,220 --> 00:36:16,210
can you can get two brains at a distance

885
00:36:22,019 --> 00:36:20,230
to go into a synchrony now now let me

886
00:36:23,849 --> 00:36:22,029
just interject here that that if you

887
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:23,859
weren't quote-unquote I know you don't

888
00:36:28,589 --> 00:36:25,690
like this term if you weren't a healer

889
00:36:31,260 --> 00:36:28,599
we'd call this a telepathy experiment

890
00:36:33,180 --> 00:36:31,270
but your your work really kind of

891
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:33,190
challenges even our idea of what

892
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:35,170
telepathy means I mean if we really

893
00:36:40,170 --> 00:36:37,359
understand what that word means so yeah

894
00:36:42,329 --> 00:36:40,180
tell explain to folks again I'm sorry to

895
00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:42,339
interrupt you so finish explaining what

896
00:36:47,849 --> 00:36:45,520
the experiment did so you would have a

897
00:36:50,279 --> 00:36:47,859
person one in one room and person two in

898
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:50,289
another room and person two in the other

899
00:36:54,029 --> 00:36:52,450
room just be hanging out hooked up to

900
00:36:58,799 --> 00:36:54,039
all the wires and the machines and

901
00:37:01,589 --> 00:36:58,809
person one would really do the

902
00:37:03,930 --> 00:37:01,599
techniques that I do when we do the mice

903
00:37:05,549 --> 00:37:03,940
experiments and then simply casually

904
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:05,559
think about the other person in the

905
00:37:08,670 --> 00:37:06,430
other room

906
00:37:10,589 --> 00:37:08,680
and it turns out at the moment that you

907
00:37:12,650 --> 00:37:10,599
casually think about the other person in

908
00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:12,660
the other room you get this

909
00:37:17,010 --> 00:37:14,529
synchronization of the two brains at a

910
00:37:17,910 --> 00:37:17,020
distance now that's interesting it may

911
00:37:20,069 --> 00:37:17,920
or may not have anything to do with

912
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:20,079
heeling bill explain what you mean

913
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:22,450
specifically in terms of synchronization

914
00:37:27,890 --> 00:37:25,630
how did you measure that we measured it

915
00:37:31,140 --> 00:37:27,900
with an EEG which is taking a

916
00:37:36,529 --> 00:37:31,150
measurement of particular cycles per

917
00:37:39,029 --> 00:37:36,539
second that a brain is resonating and

918
00:37:40,319 --> 00:37:39,039
and what happens is when you start the

919
00:37:43,740 --> 00:37:40,329
healing techniques you get a very

920
00:37:46,289 --> 00:37:43,750
distinct pattern a very distinct

921
00:37:48,329 --> 00:37:46,299
frequency and then you get a second

922
00:37:50,190 --> 00:37:48,339
harmonic to that frequency going on at

923
00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:50,200
the same time and we get a third

924
00:37:53,490 --> 00:37:52,240
harmonic and we haven't measured test

925
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:53,500
that because we don't have the equipment

926
00:38:00,089 --> 00:37:55,690
so we have at least three harmonics in a

927
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:00,099
very distinct frequency a triple

928
00:38:03,690 --> 00:38:01,930
harmonic in the brain which is exactly

929
00:38:06,210 --> 00:38:03,700
matched the recipients brain in the

930
00:38:07,799 --> 00:38:06,220
other room and so statistically this is

931
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:07,809
off the charts right I mean you have you

932
00:38:13,490 --> 00:38:10,510
have a stream of EEG readings of data

933
00:38:16,049 --> 00:38:13,500
and then you apply your visualization

934
00:38:19,019 --> 00:38:16,059
technique and there becomes this

935
00:38:21,029 --> 00:38:19,029
harmonic in your these actually three

936
00:38:23,789 --> 00:38:21,039
harmonics that you measured in your

937
00:38:26,690 --> 00:38:23,799
brain and the Heelers brain and then

938
00:38:29,279 --> 00:38:26,700
you're able to transfer that to another

939
00:38:31,740 --> 00:38:29,289
individual the receiver who obviously

940
00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:31,750
has doesn't have this pattern then all

941
00:38:35,069 --> 00:38:33,520
of a sudden has this pattern I mean the

942
00:38:38,130 --> 00:38:35,079
statistics of you were to do that would

943
00:38:39,839 --> 00:38:38,140
just be just off the charts right well

944
00:38:41,460 --> 00:38:39,849
we can't really do statistics because we

945
00:38:43,769 --> 00:38:41,470
no one's ever seen this pattern before

946
00:38:45,180 --> 00:38:43,779
you could measure that EEG you could

947
00:38:47,579 --> 00:38:45,190
break it down and do a statistical

948
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:47,589
analysis of you know what is the chances

949
00:38:51,269 --> 00:38:49,690
that this pattern is merely by chance or

950
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:51,279
something in there there just isn't I

951
00:38:55,980 --> 00:38:53,710
guess it just isn't even worth talking

952
00:38:57,359 --> 00:38:55,990
about because it's not even worth

953
00:39:00,660 --> 00:38:57,369
considering that there would be like a

954
00:39:02,609 --> 00:39:00,670
chance harmonic transfer like that well

955
00:39:06,930 --> 00:39:02,619
we actually did consider the question

956
00:39:10,109 --> 00:39:06,940
and so our EEG head guy who is Jay

957
00:39:12,839 --> 00:39:10,119
Gulman uh and and and certainly among

958
00:39:17,789 --> 00:39:12,849
the foremost EEG guys probably in the

959
00:39:20,370 --> 00:39:17,799
world uh he could testify it just from

960
00:39:23,219 --> 00:39:20,380
his experience that in awareness

961
00:39:26,479 --> 00:39:23,229
at least 500,000 EEG readings literally

962
00:39:28,829 --> 00:39:26,489
500,000 no one's ever seen this harmonic

963
00:39:30,989 --> 00:39:28,839
so they've never seen it in a single

964
00:39:33,690 --> 00:39:30,999
brain at let alone a phase-locking of

965
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:33,700
that to another brain so the pattern

966
00:39:38,789 --> 00:39:36,729
itself is different at least in his

967
00:39:41,370 --> 00:39:38,799
experience of about a half a million EEG

968
00:39:45,539 --> 00:39:41,380
s and the fact that it phase locks with

969
00:39:47,249 --> 00:39:45,549
another is is is really interesting part

970
00:39:49,549 --> 00:39:47,259
of it what makes this so challenging

971
00:39:51,989 --> 00:39:49,559
bill is your work is just so

972
00:39:53,609 --> 00:39:51,999
revolutionary like you just said I mean

973
00:39:56,969 --> 00:39:53,619
you really wrap your arms around it the

974
00:39:59,579 --> 00:39:56,979
first phase lock in the healer again

975
00:40:02,700 --> 00:39:59,589
I'll use that word is off the charts

976
00:40:05,069 --> 00:40:02,710
unbelievable unexplainable of 10 years

977
00:40:06,739 --> 00:40:05,079
worth of research there and then the

978
00:40:09,509 --> 00:40:06,749
fact that you're able to transfer that

979
00:40:12,180 --> 00:40:09,519
quote-unquote telepathically is another

980
00:40:15,089 --> 00:40:12,190
whole area I mean how do you begin to

981
00:40:18,539 --> 00:40:15,099
even wrap your arms around this it's

982
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:18,549
pretty interesting and and you try to to

983
00:40:22,859 --> 00:40:20,410
find out for example I have been able to

984
00:40:26,099 --> 00:40:22,869
pull this off yet but I want to find out

985
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:26,109
if the phase locking between two people

986
00:40:32,789 --> 00:40:29,200
varies by whether or not that person has

987
00:40:36,029 --> 00:40:32,799
a need so if we hooked up a bunch of

988
00:40:38,489 --> 00:40:36,039
people in the other room as it were and

989
00:40:40,499 --> 00:40:38,499
some of them had a need meaning a

990
00:40:42,299 --> 00:40:40,509
physical need and some of them didn't

991
00:40:46,319 --> 00:40:42,309
have a physical need you know that was

992
00:40:50,339 --> 00:40:46,329
at least obvious would there be a

993
00:40:53,279 --> 00:40:50,349
difference in the connection I want to

994
00:40:55,769 --> 00:40:53,289
find out whether the connection varies

995
00:40:58,170 --> 00:40:55,779
based on whether the the two people that

996
00:41:00,359 --> 00:40:58,180
were trying to link have a previous

997
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:00,369
connection they have some sort of an

998
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:03,130
emotional attachment so would complete

999
00:41:08,279 --> 00:41:05,440
strangers be different than people who

1000
00:41:10,469 --> 00:41:08,289
have a previous relationship would need

1001
00:41:14,579 --> 00:41:10,479
matter versus those that don't need I

1002
00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:14,589
have a suspicion I can't I can't nail

1003
00:41:20,430 --> 00:41:16,390
this yet but I have a suspicion that

1004
00:41:24,809 --> 00:41:20,440
healing is really coming from the Healey

1005
00:41:27,509 --> 00:41:24,819
and that it is a and more of an

1006
00:41:30,749 --> 00:41:27,519
autonomic response to need than anything

1007
00:41:32,729 --> 00:41:30,759
else so the state of mind of the healer

1008
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:32,739
I don't think is all that interesting or

1009
00:41:35,830 --> 00:41:33,770
important

1010
00:41:39,790 --> 00:41:35,840
except that as you just said you

1011
00:41:42,610 --> 00:41:39,800
produced an EEG that is completely

1012
00:41:45,310 --> 00:41:42,620
beyond explanation from your EEG expert

1013
00:41:47,350 --> 00:41:45,320
so I don't know that's pretty pretty

1014
00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:47,360
interesting too you know but does that

1015
00:41:51,850 --> 00:41:49,520
come I mean what we need to do is follow

1016
00:41:53,490 --> 00:41:51,860
that up and find out if that becomes if

1017
00:41:56,260 --> 00:41:53,500
the signature itself becomes

1018
00:42:01,330 --> 00:41:56,270
idiosyncratic to the person expressing a

1019
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:01,340
need uh-huh so what a different

1020
00:42:06,220 --> 00:42:03,890
let's say we will hook up mice and you

1021
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:06,230
actually can do EG readings on mice but

1022
00:42:11,770 --> 00:42:08,890
let's say we've hooked up mice and and a

1023
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:11,780
mouse with a particular stage of cancer

1024
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:15,530
being treated would that would the

1025
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:17,210
readings be different at a different

1026
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:20,330
state of cancer so as they go into

1027
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:22,010
remission for example or they're finally

1028
00:42:28,630 --> 00:42:26,090
cured or or or would these things re the

1029
00:42:31,710 --> 00:42:28,640
expression that's found so when you look

1030
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:31,720
at an EEG output it's reasonably static

1031
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:34,250
we've frozen it you know I mean it

1032
00:42:38,980 --> 00:42:36,530
actually goes over time but it's not

1033
00:42:41,050 --> 00:42:38,990
over a long period of time and and so I

1034
00:42:43,450 --> 00:42:41,060
think one of our problems is we have a

1035
00:42:46,690 --> 00:42:43,460
tendency to take an extraordinarily

1036
00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:46,700
complex and dynamic nature and try to

1037
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:49,730
reduce it to static images and maybe if

1038
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:52,370
we find the face lock we found the phase

1039
00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:55,490
lock different at different stages of

1040
00:43:00,280 --> 00:42:58,370
the need of the Healey hey Bill one

1041
00:43:01,630 --> 00:43:00,290
other really interesting experiment real

1042
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:01,640
quick I'd like you to tell people about

1043
00:43:06,010 --> 00:43:03,530
because again it's just gonna send folks

1044
00:43:09,580 --> 00:43:06,020
off in a whole different mind thought

1045
00:43:12,460 --> 00:43:09,590
direction MRI you're hooked up to an MRI

1046
00:43:15,550 --> 00:43:12,470
one of your arms is left out of the MRI

1047
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:15,560
and envelopes are placed in that arm

1048
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:18,410
describe that a mind-blowing experiment

1049
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:20,810
yeah in this one we've done a couple

1050
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:23,210
things we've the one you're referring to

1051
00:43:31,270 --> 00:43:27,770
I was the the subject as it were it was

1052
00:43:32,890 --> 00:43:31,280
also the designer but so I was lying in

1053
00:43:37,330 --> 00:43:32,900
MRI I spent a whole bunch of hours in an

1054
00:43:39,220 --> 00:43:37,340
MRI you know the party of MRIs but so

1055
00:43:42,190 --> 00:43:39,230
I'm lying in an MRI and in closed MRI

1056
00:43:46,980 --> 00:43:42,200
and I can just barely get my left hand

1057
00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:46,990
outside the enclosed area and

1058
00:43:52,140 --> 00:43:49,750
what happens is that into my hand are

1059
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:52,150
dropped envelopes which I can feel

1060
00:43:57,780 --> 00:43:54,130
tackle II you feel when an envelope

1061
00:44:00,030 --> 00:43:57,790
touches your hand so double blind people

1062
00:44:02,310 --> 00:44:00,040
are dropping envelopes into my hand some

1063
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:02,320
of the envelopes are sham envelopes they

1064
00:44:06,180 --> 00:44:03,910
have nothing in them at all other than

1065
00:44:07,890 --> 00:44:06,190
it's an envelope and some of the

1066
00:44:10,970 --> 00:44:07,900
envelopes have pictures and hair samples

1067
00:44:14,730 --> 00:44:10,980
of cancerous animals 600 miles away

1068
00:44:16,770 --> 00:44:14,740
which we got from a veterinarian and it

1069
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:16,780
turns out that to a hundred percent

1070
00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:18,850
accuracy my brain can tell a difference

1071
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:22,630
and that there is a distinct outcome

1072
00:44:27,690 --> 00:44:25,290
when you drop an envelope into a

1073
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:27,700
envelope into your hand you get a

1074
00:44:32,310 --> 00:44:30,010
particular technical response but if you

1075
00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:32,320
drop one that has a cancerous need that

1076
00:44:36,810 --> 00:44:33,910
has a picture and a hair sample of a

1077
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:36,820
cancerous animal the brain responds very

1078
00:44:41,340 --> 00:44:38,890
differently and it responds very

1079
00:44:43,590 --> 00:44:41,350
differently hundreds at a time and so

1080
00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:43,600
the brain can tell whether the the

1081
00:44:51,020 --> 00:44:48,550
envelope is live or not as it were and

1082
00:44:53,580 --> 00:44:51,030
this is very very different than

1083
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:53,590
conscious awareness and this goes to my

1084
00:44:56,970 --> 00:44:55,330
statement that I think that healing

1085
00:45:00,480 --> 00:44:56,980
might be an autonomic response to need

1086
00:45:02,670 --> 00:45:00,490
that I'm not aware of anything other

1087
00:45:04,830 --> 00:45:02,680
than I'm in a noisy ugly environment and

1088
00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:04,840
that somebody's putting something in my

1089
00:45:07,470 --> 00:45:06,310
hand and taking it out of my hand and

1090
00:45:08,970 --> 00:45:07,480
putting something on my hand and taking

1091
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:08,980
that on my hand I can't tell the

1092
00:45:12,180 --> 00:45:10,330
difference consciously I'm not aware of

1093
00:45:14,430 --> 00:45:12,190
anything I'm not I'm not a psychic I'm

1094
00:45:16,590 --> 00:45:14,440
not sensitive I'm nothing like that I'm

1095
00:45:19,740 --> 00:45:16,600
just lying in a tube but my brain is

1096
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:19,750
responding and it knows and so if it

1097
00:45:25,260 --> 00:45:23,680
need is expressed the brain does gonna

1098
00:45:26,970 --> 00:45:25,270
say turns on but I don't know what turns

1099
00:45:29,070 --> 00:45:26,980
on means the brain responds very

1100
00:45:32,210 --> 00:45:29,080
differently than if it's just a touch to

1101
00:45:36,090 --> 00:45:32,220
the brain and so here again I get to

1102
00:45:38,550 --> 00:45:36,100
consciously healing doesn't require a

1103
00:45:41,849 --> 00:45:38,560
conscious anything it doesn't require a

1104
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:41,859
belief it doesn't require the particular

1105
00:45:47,609 --> 00:45:43,930
state of mind and off to be flopping on

1106
00:45:49,740 --> 00:45:47,619
the floor I don't have to be spiritual I

1107
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:49,750
want to be anything interesting very

1108
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:52,330
interesting hypothesis I have to jump on

1109
00:45:57,660 --> 00:45:55,210
that word spiritual I think it's it's

1110
00:46:00,280 --> 00:45:57,670
just fascinating topic and it's

1111
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:00,290
something we've tried to approach

1112
00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:02,330
in this show a lot because let me take

1113
00:46:05,410 --> 00:46:03,920
this in a slightly different direction

1114
00:46:07,060 --> 00:46:05,420
and try and make a connection very

1115
00:46:09,070 --> 00:46:07,070
interested to hear your opinion on this

1116
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:09,080
we've looked at the near-death

1117
00:46:14,050 --> 00:46:11,210
experience research quite a bit on this

1118
00:46:16,330 --> 00:46:14,060
show because it challenges this idea

1119
00:46:19,210 --> 00:46:16,340
this kind of ridiculous materialistic

1120
00:46:21,100 --> 00:46:19,220
idea that mind equals brain and it

1121
00:46:24,430 --> 00:46:21,110
challenges directly because these people

1122
00:46:28,270 --> 00:46:24,440
in an NDE situation don't have a brain

1123
00:46:29,950 --> 00:46:28,280
anymore and yet we know from the many

1124
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:29,960
experiments that have done and the many

1125
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:31,760
clinical papers that have been published

1126
00:46:36,670 --> 00:46:35,450
they do still have a mind they do still

1127
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:36,680
have an experience they have a

1128
00:46:42,630 --> 00:46:39,770
consciousness that extends beyond that

1129
00:46:45,340 --> 00:46:42,640
and that immediately puts you

1130
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:45,350
full-frontal with the spiritual be

1131
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:47,690
because that's part of the report too is

1132
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:49,250
that these people have this spiritual

1133
00:46:52,420 --> 00:46:51,200
experience and then that you have to

1134
00:46:55,150 --> 00:46:52,430
correlate with other people have had

1135
00:46:58,810 --> 00:46:55,160
spiritually transformative experiences

1136
00:47:00,520 --> 00:46:58,820
so it kind of leads to it in your case

1137
00:47:02,590 --> 00:47:00,530
if we're really going to be honest it

1138
00:47:05,350 --> 00:47:02,600
leads you in the other direction almost

1139
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:05,360
because what you're saying essentially

1140
00:47:10,510 --> 00:47:08,000
is that that the spiritual doesn't come

1141
00:47:13,420 --> 00:47:10,520
into it at all and this area that has

1142
00:47:16,150 --> 00:47:13,430
often been associated with spirituality

1143
00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:16,160
and this extended consciousness thing

1144
00:47:20,650 --> 00:47:19,040
you're saying I don't see any link not

1145
00:47:24,820 --> 00:47:20,660
that I'm looking for it but it isn't

1146
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:24,830
presenting itself this idea of spiritual

1147
00:47:30,430 --> 00:47:27,290
connection well do you have any thoughts

1148
00:47:33,940 --> 00:47:30,440
on either what this consciousness

1149
00:47:37,110 --> 00:47:33,950
extending beyond bodily death might mean

1150
00:47:39,730 --> 00:47:37,120
or how that's connected to this or how

1151
00:47:42,010 --> 00:47:39,740
spirituality in general is connected to

1152
00:47:46,660 --> 00:47:42,020
your work first of all I think the

1153
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:46,670
near-death experience research is just

1154
00:47:52,510 --> 00:47:51,290
fascinating it's beautiful I mean do you

1155
00:47:53,740 --> 00:47:52,520
look at some of the stuff coming out of

1156
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:53,750
the University of Virginia for example

1157
00:47:58,930 --> 00:47:57,050
and Bruce Grayson and those guys it's

1158
00:48:01,810 --> 00:47:58,940
beautiful stuff I mean it makes you you

1159
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:01,820
got to sit up and take notice something

1160
00:48:06,430 --> 00:48:03,530
serious is going on there I actually

1161
00:48:08,620 --> 00:48:06,440
have a paper coming out I don't know

1162
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:08,630
maybe this month what I did among other

1163
00:48:13,030 --> 00:48:10,850
thing is I examined the logs of my

1164
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:13,040
student volunteers and faculty

1165
00:48:15,650 --> 00:48:14,010
volunteers

1166
00:48:18,170 --> 00:48:15,660
it's harder to get to do the logs

1167
00:48:19,970 --> 00:48:18,180
faculty are pretty useless but students

1168
00:48:22,850 --> 00:48:19,980
at least some of them can be a little

1169
00:48:25,610 --> 00:48:22,860
more compliant and so when I've asked

1170
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:25,620
people for example to treat cages of

1171
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:29,310
mice under various conditions I am also

1172
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:32,010
asking them to keep a log of their

1173
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:35,730
thoughts experiences feelings and and so

1174
00:48:41,510 --> 00:48:38,730
on and and so it it was there that I

1175
00:48:45,980 --> 00:48:41,520
really learned the extent of the lack of

1176
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:45,990
belief of many people for example some

1177
00:48:51,110 --> 00:48:48,930
of the students talked amongst

1178
00:48:52,940 --> 00:48:51,120
themselves and said they really thought

1179
00:48:54,410 --> 00:48:52,950
I was doing studying gullibility and

1180
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:54,420
that gives you an idea of how little

1181
00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:56,130
they actually believed in healing so

1182
00:48:59,810 --> 00:48:58,290
they thought I was can i trick someone

1183
00:49:01,100 --> 00:48:59,820
to putting their hands around a cage and

1184
00:49:02,810 --> 00:49:01,110
thinking something will happen right

1185
00:49:04,730 --> 00:49:02,820
right so you've asked just so I can I

1186
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:04,740
can understand it as I explained to

1187
00:49:08,660 --> 00:49:07,050
other folks you said okay you know

1188
00:49:10,250 --> 00:49:08,670
here's the protocol we're gonna follow

1189
00:49:14,060 --> 00:49:10,260
and you have to do this experiment and

1190
00:49:15,650 --> 00:49:14,070
oh by the way keep this log of just your

1191
00:49:17,930 --> 00:49:15,660
kind of personal journal of what you

1192
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:17,940
went through and lo and behold you look

1193
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:20,010
at the personal journal and they say you

1194
00:49:24,250 --> 00:49:22,050
know I I know he's asking me to do this

1195
00:49:26,810 --> 00:49:24,260
but I think this is really an

1196
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:26,820
experimental experiment on whether I'm

1197
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:28,650
gullible enough to follow these

1198
00:49:34,070 --> 00:49:32,130
ridiculous procedures they thought I was

1199
00:49:35,780 --> 00:49:34,080
just screw with the heads which

1200
00:49:39,260 --> 00:49:35,790
apparently I was but not the way I

1201
00:49:41,330 --> 00:49:39,270
intended and so so they really didn't

1202
00:49:44,090 --> 00:49:41,340
believe it stuff but but also some of

1203
00:49:45,350 --> 00:49:44,100
them after they settled in and first

1204
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:45,360
time you put your hands around a cage

1205
00:49:49,970 --> 00:49:47,850
you've cancerous mice you're gonna feel

1206
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:49,980
a little awkward you know say the least

1207
00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:52,650
and and after a while you get used to it

1208
00:49:55,370 --> 00:49:54,150
and you're you're coming into the lab

1209
00:49:59,720 --> 00:49:55,380
and you're doing whatever it is you're

1210
00:50:02,090 --> 00:49:59,730
doing and sometimes you're just alone

1211
00:50:04,790 --> 00:50:02,100
with the mice sometimes you're with

1212
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:04,800
other people and sometimes sometimes

1213
00:50:11,330 --> 00:50:08,970
something happens and I say sometimes so

1214
00:50:16,940 --> 00:50:11,340
in the logs and talking to the people

1215
00:50:19,730 --> 00:50:16,950
what I have is a variety of subjective

1216
00:50:23,180 --> 00:50:19,740
experiences that the people have gone

1217
00:50:25,870 --> 00:50:23,190
through and some of them feel nothing

1218
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:25,880
think this is this is complete nonsense

1219
00:50:31,140 --> 00:50:27,130
they

1220
00:50:33,660 --> 00:50:31,150
their life depending on it and others

1221
00:50:35,850 --> 00:50:33,670
feel the connection and something

1222
00:50:40,020 --> 00:50:35,860
happens at some times and sometimes it

1223
00:50:44,610 --> 00:50:40,030
happens at quiet moments and it is they

1224
00:50:48,210 --> 00:50:44,620
feel something other in a connection

1225
00:50:51,210 --> 00:50:48,220
with their mice so the first statement

1226
00:50:53,550 --> 00:50:51,220
would be the people in the experiments

1227
00:50:58,740 --> 00:50:53,560
have the range of experience that run

1228
00:51:02,700 --> 00:50:58,750
from nothing to what is that something's

1229
00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:02,710
going on and it turns out the difference

1230
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:06,480
among them is not related at all to the

1231
00:51:13,050 --> 00:51:10,570
success or failure rate of healing so

1232
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:13,060
the people who are feeling nothing at

1233
00:51:16,890 --> 00:51:13,450
all

1234
00:51:20,340 --> 00:51:16,900
heal the same as the people who are

1235
00:51:24,180 --> 00:51:20,350
feeling something and it occurred to me

1236
00:51:28,590 --> 00:51:24,190
after a while that perhaps we have the

1237
00:51:31,350 --> 00:51:28,600
causal direction backwards back to your

1238
00:51:33,690 --> 00:51:31,360
point of the need of the need yeah so

1239
00:51:36,030 --> 00:51:33,700
people who have been have hurt people

1240
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:36,040
and I now have meant you know a bunch of

1241
00:51:40,380 --> 00:51:39,490
healers and such and and they they some

1242
00:51:43,020 --> 00:51:40,390
of them go through

1243
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:43,030
I don't know healing rituals and some of

1244
00:51:48,030 --> 00:51:45,970
them go through they they they're like

1245
00:51:50,490 --> 00:51:48,040
clearing their minds and they're they're

1246
00:51:52,410 --> 00:51:50,500
doing all these kinds of things and and

1247
00:51:56,490 --> 00:51:52,420
so they're trying to get what you could

1248
00:51:59,400 --> 00:51:56,500
loosely call into a spiritual frame of

1249
00:52:02,250 --> 00:51:59,410
mind you know I did that's very day but

1250
00:52:04,980 --> 00:52:02,260
they're they're trying to become

1251
00:52:07,620 --> 00:52:04,990
spiritual and they think that if they

1252
00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:07,630
become spiritual or experienced

1253
00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:09,760
spiritual things that that will enhance

1254
00:52:15,540 --> 00:52:12,430
healing that healing is an outgrowth of

1255
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:15,550
a particular spiritual state of mind and

1256
00:52:21,870 --> 00:52:18,790
I suspect that this is backwards that

1257
00:52:25,110 --> 00:52:21,880
the causal sequence is backwards that I

1258
00:52:27,450 --> 00:52:25,120
think that the sense of connection which

1259
00:52:30,300 --> 00:52:27,460
I'll take is generically similar to

1260
00:52:34,500 --> 00:52:30,310
spirituality the sense of connection is

1261
00:52:39,390 --> 00:52:34,510
a consequence of healing not the cause

1262
00:52:41,460 --> 00:52:39,400
and those people who are more sensitive

1263
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:41,470
to that experience

1264
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:44,530
we'll feel it and those people who are

1265
00:52:49,710 --> 00:52:47,290
not sensitive to that experience will

1266
00:52:51,690 --> 00:52:49,720
not feel it and that doesn't seem to

1267
00:52:56,190 --> 00:52:51,700
matter in terms of the efficacy of

1268
00:52:58,170 --> 00:52:56,200
healing it seems to matter as simply if

1269
00:53:00,810 --> 00:52:58,180
you're open to having that experience

1270
00:53:03,930 --> 00:53:00,820
but I think healing occurs nonetheless

1271
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:03,940
and is not related directly it's not a

1272
00:53:08,940 --> 00:53:06,640
consequence of that feeling so you don't

1273
00:53:10,770 --> 00:53:08,950
I wouldn't recommend get into a

1274
00:53:13,500 --> 00:53:10,780
spiritual state of mind and try to heal

1275
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:13,510
I would say just heal I mean just

1276
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:14,800
healing for crying out loud it's a

1277
00:53:20,340 --> 00:53:16,930
natural thing and the sense of

1278
00:53:24,030 --> 00:53:20,350
spirituality is is a sensation you have

1279
00:53:25,230 --> 00:53:24,040
in your conscious mind I don't know that

1280
00:53:27,450 --> 00:53:25,240
the conscious mind is particularly

1281
00:53:29,940 --> 00:53:27,460
relevant any of this stuff but then

1282
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:29,950
you're using conscious there in a very

1283
00:53:35,910 --> 00:53:33,010
narrow way that that we understand it

1284
00:53:37,590 --> 00:53:35,920
right because the whole work that you're

1285
00:53:38,810 --> 00:53:37,600
talking about challenges our

1286
00:53:41,580 --> 00:53:38,820
understanding of consciousness

1287
00:53:44,370 --> 00:53:41,590
especially when we when we look at how

1288
00:53:45,420 --> 00:53:44,380
that's embedded in a scientific as that

1289
00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:45,430
wisdom that doesn't even acknowledge

1290
00:53:49,410 --> 00:53:47,110
that there is such a thing as

1291
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:49,420
consciousness so I mean it's it's hard

1292
00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:51,970
to rely on these things down one thing I

1293
00:53:56,940 --> 00:53:54,910
wanted to touch on it because it did

1294
00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:56,950
cross my mind and I'm sure a lot of

1295
00:54:03,450 --> 00:53:59,280
people are thinking about this you can

1296
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:03,460
at point sound like this cruel you know

1297
00:54:08,460 --> 00:54:06,210
the ultimate cruel animal killer

1298
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:08,470
experimenter who's you know injecting

1299
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:11,530
all these mice with cancer and you had

1300
00:54:14,910 --> 00:54:13,450
just a beautiful little tidbit in an

1301
00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:14,920
interview I heard where you said you

1302
00:54:21,780 --> 00:54:18,640
know you're much more morally outraged

1303
00:54:25,740 --> 00:54:21,790
at the idea as long as well as the

1304
00:54:29,550 --> 00:54:25,750
efficacy of killing cancer cells in a

1305
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:29,560
petri dish then you are with the

1306
00:54:36,210 --> 00:54:32,290
necessity of performing these

1307
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:36,220
experiments on these mice I mean a

1308
00:54:44,790 --> 00:54:41,250
couple of interesting things one is I am

1309
00:54:48,030 --> 00:54:44,800
very uncomfortable with doing animal

1310
00:54:52,050 --> 00:54:48,040
research just because I'm uncomfortable

1311
00:54:54,930 --> 00:54:52,060
I don't know how else to do it so the

1312
00:54:57,569 --> 00:54:54,940
kinds of things that I have done

1313
00:54:59,520 --> 00:54:57,579
there is no alternative to doing it the

1314
00:55:01,410 --> 00:54:59,530
way I'd do it at least as far as I'm

1315
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:01,420
aware right now hey and let's interject

1316
00:55:04,410 --> 00:55:02,650
something there because it's a really

1317
00:55:07,770 --> 00:55:04,420
good point that you make you know you do

1318
00:55:09,540 --> 00:55:07,780
this same experiment with people and you

1319
00:55:10,910 --> 00:55:09,550
just try and heal people and you run

1320
00:55:13,170 --> 00:55:10,920
into all sorts of problems

1321
00:55:15,329 --> 00:55:13,180
experimentally and the main one is that

1322
00:55:18,809 --> 00:55:15,339
they come to you once and they never

1323
00:55:20,970 --> 00:55:18,819
come back they don't yet so you would

1324
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:20,980
not be able to produce results that

1325
00:55:24,870 --> 00:55:23,410
would have any chance not that your

1326
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:24,880
results in general have any chance of

1327
00:55:27,599 --> 00:55:25,839
changing the medical establishment

1328
00:55:30,990 --> 00:55:27,609
because history would suggest that they

1329
00:55:33,839 --> 00:55:31,000
don't but you wouldn't even be on the

1330
00:55:35,700 --> 00:55:33,849
radar if you weren't doing this in a

1331
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:35,710
very controlled way that you can do with

1332
00:55:41,700 --> 00:55:38,770
a thousand mice in a cage right no you

1333
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:41,710
have people and I mean you really can't

1334
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:44,170
make any conclusions from from doing

1335
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:46,810
people that are that are worth too much

1336
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:50,319
right in my opinion so let's say you had

1337
00:55:55,559 --> 00:55:53,410
10 people who who came to you and you

1338
00:55:58,440 --> 00:55:55,569
did these healing techniques on 10

1339
00:56:02,309 --> 00:55:58,450
people and they all got better all right

1340
00:56:04,620 --> 00:56:02,319
you don't know what did it so you don't

1341
00:56:06,270 --> 00:56:04,630
know whether it was their diet you don't

1342
00:56:07,890 --> 00:56:06,280
know whether it was they got more sleep

1343
00:56:08,579 --> 00:56:07,900
they got less sleep they got you know

1344
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:08,589
who knows

1345
00:56:13,890 --> 00:56:11,530
so people are ugly in the sense that

1346
00:56:16,770 --> 00:56:13,900
they don't produce clean data and it

1347
00:56:19,559 --> 00:56:16,780
gets worse that as you point out they

1348
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:19,569
don't come back so the odds of getting

1349
00:56:24,809 --> 00:56:21,730
10 people to follow all the ways are

1350
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:24,819
extremely remote in the case of the mice

1351
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:26,290
and the reason that it's such a

1352
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,930
beautiful model is you have thousands

1353
00:56:31,950 --> 00:56:30,400
and thousands of experiments you know

1354
00:56:33,630 --> 00:56:31,960
exactly what's going to happen you know

1355
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:33,640
the conditions which will produce what

1356
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:36,010
effects you know all those things and

1357
00:56:43,380 --> 00:56:39,450
you can make reasonably hard conclusions

1358
00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:43,390
so without the mice you'd have a bunch

1359
00:56:48,359 --> 00:56:45,250
of people that you hear stories about

1360
00:56:50,790 --> 00:56:48,369
and the people had a condition and then

1361
00:56:52,410 --> 00:56:50,800
someone said hocus-pocus and wave their

1362
00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:52,420
arms and then the condition left well

1363
00:56:57,569 --> 00:56:54,250
are you gonna tie the two together I

1364
00:57:02,940 --> 00:56:57,579
don't know maybe it was the vitamin C

1365
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:02,950
they took who knows so a skeptic doesn't

1366
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:04,450
have a way to come to a firm conclusion

1367
00:57:11,550 --> 00:57:07,810
there so bill back to the

1368
00:57:14,100 --> 00:57:11,560
moral problems of killing those cancer

1369
00:57:15,330 --> 00:57:14,110
cells in a petri dish I think that's a

1370
00:57:18,270 --> 00:57:15,340
really interesting point

1371
00:57:21,180 --> 00:57:18,280
well it sounds facetious but I think

1372
00:57:23,010 --> 00:57:21,190
that in in my crazy way of looking at

1373
00:57:26,340 --> 00:57:23,020
the world I think that healing should

1374
00:57:28,890 --> 00:57:26,350
heal if you have cancer cells in a petri

1375
00:57:31,860 --> 00:57:28,900
dish or a well plate or whatever your

1376
00:57:34,610 --> 00:57:31,870
storage facility is and a healer comes

1377
00:57:38,790 --> 00:57:34,620
along and does whatever their healing

1378
00:57:40,740 --> 00:57:38,800
thing is then presumably the outcome is

1379
00:57:43,980 --> 00:57:40,750
to the benefit of that which their

1380
00:57:46,730 --> 00:57:43,990
healing cancer in a test tube we'll call

1381
00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:46,740
it has no need other than to reproduce

1382
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:48,880
that's what struck me about that

1383
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:51,970
statement is it immediately shifted my

1384
00:57:58,170 --> 00:57:56,050
my awareness from these mice who are

1385
00:57:59,520 --> 00:57:58,180
dying which is really kind of like you

1386
00:58:02,940 --> 00:57:59,530
said a terrible horrible thing to think

1387
00:58:04,980 --> 00:58:02,950
about - why did I focus on that as

1388
00:58:07,350 --> 00:58:04,990
opposed to these cells why did I

1389
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:07,360
immediately you know jump right in the

1390
00:58:13,890 --> 00:58:09,930
middle of this assumed hierarchical

1391
00:58:16,620 --> 00:58:13,900
importance of life you know and I think

1392
00:58:18,690 --> 00:58:16,630
you draw to that and I think taking it

1393
00:58:21,870 --> 00:58:18,700
in a totally different direction what

1394
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:21,880
are the implications for that in terms

1395
00:58:26,220 --> 00:58:24,010
of how we do this kind of medical

1396
00:58:31,650 --> 00:58:26,230
research because as your research

1397
00:58:33,930 --> 00:58:31,660
suggests maybe cancer cells in a test

1398
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:33,940
tube or in a petri dish have a different

1399
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:37,690
need than the cells in a mouse and

1400
00:58:43,950 --> 00:58:41,370
therefore you know what kind of crazy

1401
00:58:46,980 --> 00:58:43,960
experimental effect are we introducing

1402
00:58:49,710 --> 00:58:46,990
that's kind of mucking up all our data

1403
00:58:51,930 --> 00:58:49,720
when we look at the test tube yeah I

1404
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:51,940
actually wrote an editorial about this

1405
00:58:56,010 --> 00:58:53,170
for the Journal of alternative and

1406
00:58:58,680 --> 00:58:56,020
complementary medicine they asked me to

1407
00:59:01,560 --> 00:58:58,690
write an editorial and and the real

1408
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:01,570
short version was there was a group of

1409
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:03,250
Joe ray practitioners Joe raised a

1410
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:06,130
particular method of healing I don't

1411
00:59:10,020 --> 00:59:08,170
know how to do it but but it alleges to

1412
00:59:14,370 --> 00:59:10,030
produce healing effects and they got a

1413
00:59:17,430 --> 00:59:14,380
bunch of Joe ray healers who intended

1414
00:59:19,350 --> 00:59:17,440
healing at a bunch of cancer cells they

1415
00:59:21,630 --> 00:59:19,360
had six different kinds of cancer a

1416
00:59:24,750 --> 00:59:21,640
couple of human couple of

1417
00:59:26,819 --> 00:59:24,760
a mouse and they were intending to these

1418
00:59:29,759 --> 00:59:26,829
we'll just call him pet petri dishes

1419
00:59:31,529 --> 00:59:29,769
they were intending to these healing and

1420
00:59:34,410 --> 00:59:31,539
and what they found was they had a

1421
00:59:37,799 --> 00:59:34,420
significant increase in the death rate

1422
00:59:42,269 --> 00:59:37,809
of these cells and I got alarmed

1423
00:59:43,650 --> 00:59:42,279
I got alarmed and I thought whoa

1424
00:59:45,839 --> 00:59:43,660
well I mean this this this could be

1425
00:59:47,849 --> 00:59:45,849
reasonably profound about what this says

1426
00:59:50,009 --> 00:59:47,859
about healing and certainly what it says

1427
00:59:52,319 --> 00:59:50,019
about intent because if these people

1428
00:59:55,049 --> 00:59:52,329
were intending healing yet they had an

1429
00:59:57,359 --> 00:59:55,059
increase in cell death does that mean

1430
00:59:59,279 --> 00:59:57,369
that intention doesn't matter is it

1431
01:00:03,779 --> 00:59:59,289
possible that you intend healing yet

1432
01:00:05,759 --> 01:00:03,789
killing results and so if this was

1433
01:00:08,370 --> 01:00:05,769
likened or you could see the direct

1434
01:00:11,009 --> 01:00:08,380
analogy to something like radiation

1435
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:11,019
so here the healer is going is that zap

1436
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:13,210
and and the cells are dying in a

1437
01:00:18,299 --> 01:00:16,210
particular rate an increased rate of

1438
01:00:20,730 --> 01:00:18,309
death and and so I found that

1439
01:00:24,630 --> 01:00:20,740
particularly interesting that maybe

1440
01:00:28,650 --> 01:00:24,640
these killers are not healing maybe this

1441
01:00:31,079 --> 01:00:28,660
is more of a psychokinetic effect that

1442
01:00:33,569 --> 01:00:31,089
they had an intention what they consider

1443
01:00:35,549 --> 01:00:33,579
healing was really to kill cells mm-hmm

1444
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:35,559
and I don't consider that healing at all

1445
01:00:41,940 --> 01:00:38,799
mm-hmm yeah be careful what your what

1446
01:00:44,130 --> 01:00:41,950
your intentions really are yeah so maybe

1447
01:00:50,190 --> 01:00:44,140
a psychokinetic effect going see if we

1448
01:00:52,829 --> 01:00:50,200
can change or kill cells or do a lot and

1449
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:52,839
maybe it works but the way it was

1450
01:00:56,309 --> 01:00:54,250
described in the paper

1451
01:00:58,319 --> 01:00:56,319
the healers intended healing and I

1452
01:01:01,019 --> 01:00:58,329
thought this does make sense he legit

1453
01:01:04,410 --> 01:01:01,029
heal and of course the idea of intending

1454
01:01:07,109 --> 01:01:04,420
harm and intending killing is something

1455
01:01:08,700 --> 01:01:07,119
that our government has investigated for

1456
01:01:10,890 --> 01:01:08,710
quite some time I mean the the movie

1457
01:01:12,420 --> 01:01:10,900
yeah men that stare at goats and Jon

1458
01:01:14,579 --> 01:01:12,430
Ronson is somebody we've had on the show

1459
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:14,589
even though he's kind of of a skeptical

1460
01:01:17,940 --> 01:01:16,210
bent if you talk to the really the

1461
01:01:20,190 --> 01:01:17,950
people who really were involved in those

1462
01:01:23,150 --> 01:01:20,200
projects they said yeah we were trying

1463
01:01:25,650 --> 01:01:23,160
to do that we were trying to focus that

1464
01:01:27,269 --> 01:01:25,660
ability well it doesn't sound like they

1465
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:27,279
had nearly the the deeper understanding

1466
01:01:31,140 --> 01:01:29,440
of it than you did but then we'll never

1467
01:01:33,779 --> 01:01:31,150
know because we will never see that

1468
01:01:35,190 --> 01:01:33,789
research but yeah it does bring up some

1469
01:01:38,609 --> 01:01:35,200
thorny issues in terms

1470
01:01:40,859 --> 01:01:38,619
of intention and psychokinesis yeah if

1471
01:01:44,220 --> 01:01:40,869
you could intention in psychokinesis

1472
01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:44,230
screw up cells and increase cell death

1473
01:01:48,180 --> 01:01:45,910
and do all those kinds of things you

1474
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:48,190
know wonderful some of the evidence and

1475
01:01:52,410 --> 01:01:50,530
I but I would just conceptually consider

1476
01:01:54,589 --> 01:01:52,420
that to be different than healing so you

1477
01:01:55,980 --> 01:01:54,599
get for example the wonderful

1478
01:01:58,500 --> 01:01:55,990
experiments done at Princeton

1479
01:02:03,170 --> 01:01:58,510
engineering and in the parallel for

1480
01:02:05,310 --> 01:02:03,180
about 30 years can can a consciousness

1481
01:02:07,740 --> 01:02:05,320
deliberately affect the outcome of a

1482
01:02:10,770 --> 01:02:07,750
random number generator well they have

1483
01:02:13,290 --> 01:02:10,780
30 years of data that I think yes the

1484
01:02:15,450 --> 01:02:13,300
answer is yes the consciousness can

1485
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:15,460
affect the outcome of a random number

1486
01:02:18,390 --> 01:02:17,170
generator I mean there's no question at

1487
01:02:21,780 --> 01:02:18,400
this point they have literally millions

1488
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:21,790
of trials and you can come in there and

1489
01:02:26,130 --> 01:02:24,250
make a we'll call an electronic coin

1490
01:02:28,319 --> 01:02:26,140
flip or come out more heads than it

1491
01:02:29,609 --> 01:02:28,329
ought to or make it come out more tails

1492
01:02:32,190 --> 01:02:29,619
that are going to and when a

1493
01:02:34,530 --> 01:02:32,200
consciousness inserts itself then the

1494
01:02:37,230 --> 01:02:34,540
outcome changes when the consciousness

1495
01:02:39,510 --> 01:02:37,240
under inserts itself the outcome goes

1496
01:02:42,420 --> 01:02:39,520
back to chance and so that's a

1497
01:02:45,780 --> 01:02:42,430
psychokinetic effect i think that's

1498
01:02:49,170 --> 01:02:45,790
different than healing and so i I did

1499
01:02:50,579 --> 01:02:49,180
some experiments that I haven't

1500
01:02:51,870 --> 01:02:50,589
published yet because I need a whole

1501
01:02:56,910 --> 01:02:51,880
bunch of replications before I'll

1502
01:03:00,839 --> 01:02:56,920
publish anything but if the essentially

1503
01:03:03,870 --> 01:03:00,849
it was treating the medium in which the

1504
01:03:06,450 --> 01:03:03,880
cancer cells are grown so these are in

1505
01:03:09,569 --> 01:03:06,460
vitro treating the medium in which the

1506
01:03:12,930 --> 01:03:09,579
cancer cells are grown so you have the

1507
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:12,940
nutrients the the medium that and you

1508
01:03:18,420 --> 01:03:15,010
put cancer cells in them and they that's

1509
01:03:21,540 --> 01:03:18,430
their food what happens if you intend

1510
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:21,550
healing to the medium in which the

1511
01:03:25,950 --> 01:03:23,170
cancer cells are grown that's the

1512
01:03:28,319 --> 01:03:25,960
question and it turns out that we had at

1513
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:28,329
least an increase of 600 percent growth

1514
01:03:34,170 --> 01:03:31,210
in cancer cells Wow you know kind of

1515
01:03:35,790 --> 01:03:34,180
scared the lab a little but it ate for

1516
01:03:37,890 --> 01:03:35,800
the graduate assistants you know things

1517
01:03:40,829 --> 01:03:37,900
like that and so so the cancer went

1518
01:03:42,420 --> 01:03:40,839
crazy now that's pretty interesting I'm

1519
01:03:43,950 --> 01:03:42,430
not surprised I mean I'm just a little

1520
01:03:45,569 --> 01:03:43,960
shocked by the by the strength of the

1521
01:03:46,710 --> 01:03:45,579
effect because it was until he didn't

1522
01:03:48,910 --> 01:03:46,720
have to do any statistics

1523
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:48,920
this wasn't a subtle effect

1524
01:03:55,930 --> 01:03:52,370
so six a little more six hundred percent

1525
01:03:57,970 --> 01:03:55,940
increase in cancer cell growth that's

1526
01:03:59,320 --> 01:03:57,980
healing now what would happen I don't

1527
01:04:01,120 --> 01:03:59,330
know the answer it's Valle what would

1528
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:01,130
happen if you took that same

1529
01:04:05,380 --> 01:04:03,290
supercharged cancer which I would

1530
01:04:08,620 --> 01:04:05,390
consider having been healed because

1531
01:04:11,290 --> 01:04:08,630
cancer does what it divides mmm-hmm

1532
01:04:13,330 --> 01:04:11,300
if you if you read the book the Emperor

1533
01:04:15,630 --> 01:04:13,340
of all maladies which is a biography of

1534
01:04:17,860 --> 01:04:15,640
cancer there's a wonderful line in there

1535
01:04:20,770 --> 01:04:17,870
saying that cancer is a more perfect

1536
01:04:24,700 --> 01:04:20,780
version of ourselves that get your

1537
01:04:26,500 --> 01:04:24,710
attention you know so cancer divides it

1538
01:04:28,420 --> 01:04:26,510
doesn't know how to stop the body so

1539
01:04:30,010 --> 01:04:28,430
it's got a short term incredible success

1540
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:30,020
rate with a not a great long term

1541
01:04:34,890 --> 01:04:33,050
strategy and and and so you know hadn't

1542
01:04:39,010 --> 01:04:34,900
thought things through it's kind of like

1543
01:04:42,370 --> 01:04:39,020
capitalism so so you're looking for

1544
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:42,380
quarterly profits cancer goes nuts and

1545
01:04:48,220 --> 01:04:43,970
beats out everybody else and has no off

1546
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:48,230
switch if you heal that it should get

1547
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:49,610
what it wants and what does it want to

1548
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:51,290
do it wants to keep going and that's

1549
01:04:56,830 --> 01:04:54,170
that's what happened now if we took that

1550
01:04:59,980 --> 01:04:56,840
same supercharged cancer and injected it

1551
01:05:03,280 --> 01:04:59,990
into a mouse what would happen I don't

1552
01:05:06,220 --> 01:05:03,290
know I got to do this but my suspicion

1553
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:06,230
is it would then collapse because you'd

1554
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:08,170
have a lot of energy in the system and

1555
01:05:14,710 --> 01:05:12,170
the cancer I suspect is a group of cells

1556
01:05:17,500 --> 01:05:14,720
not in communication with its neighbors

1557
01:05:19,390 --> 01:05:17,510
and if what the organism needs is to

1558
01:05:21,850 --> 01:05:19,400
communicate with the cancer you're

1559
01:05:25,270 --> 01:05:21,860
killing your healing so healing in that

1560
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:25,280
in that conceptual model is saying to

1561
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:28,490
cancer come play with us well it's an

1562
01:05:32,860 --> 01:05:31,130
amazing body of work than and I love

1563
01:05:35,260 --> 01:05:32,870
that phrase come play with us because I

1564
01:05:36,910 --> 01:05:35,270
think the whole body of work invites us

1565
01:05:39,190 --> 01:05:36,920
come play with us I mean that's that's

1566
01:05:42,010 --> 01:05:39,200
what it's saying come figure me out come

1567
01:05:45,190 --> 01:05:42,020
understand what this means give folks a

1568
01:05:47,590 --> 01:05:45,200
sense for the scope of this bill because

1569
01:05:51,370 --> 01:05:47,600
you have so many great stories but you

1570
01:05:52,810 --> 01:05:51,380
have this fantastic book the energy cure

1571
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:52,820
unraveling the mystery of hands on

1572
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:54,650
healing but you also have numerous

1573
01:05:58,930 --> 01:05:56,930
numerous peer-reviewed paper give us a

1574
01:06:01,900 --> 01:05:58,940
sense for the scope of what you've

1575
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:01,910
published out there oh I've got stuff on

1576
01:06:05,710 --> 01:06:02,690
say

1577
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:05,720
locking brains on cancer emitting in my

1578
01:06:13,599 --> 01:06:10,010
son EEG stuff on functional MRI stuff on

1579
01:06:15,819 --> 01:06:13,609
I think I have a pretty novel idea of

1580
01:06:17,260 --> 01:06:15,829
how placebos work with an actual linkage

1581
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:17,270
for treating normal and control groups

1582
01:06:22,030 --> 01:06:19,490
you know that kind of stuff so that I

1583
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:22,040
mean my interests run pretty wide they

1584
01:06:24,790 --> 01:06:23,450
run pretty wide one of the things I'm

1585
01:06:27,609 --> 01:06:24,800
interested in that you mentioned the

1586
01:06:31,450 --> 01:06:27,619
energy cure as the book I also have a

1587
01:06:33,490 --> 01:06:31,460
companion CD set which I'm interested in

1588
01:06:36,010 --> 01:06:33,500
about the question of can healing be

1589
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:36,020
taught and I published a paper a couple

1590
01:06:41,050 --> 01:06:38,450
of years ago on the question can healing

1591
01:06:43,809 --> 01:06:41,060
be taught and I've gotten a lot of flack

1592
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:43,819
for that people yelling in my face and

1593
01:06:47,770 --> 01:06:45,530
stuff you like saying you're an idiot of

1594
01:06:49,210 --> 01:06:47,780
course it can be taught and I said well

1595
01:06:50,740 --> 01:06:49,220
if you have any evidence and of course

1596
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:50,750
they say we don't need evidence and I

1597
01:06:56,050 --> 01:06:54,290
said well I'm scared of you that it it

1598
01:06:57,790 --> 01:06:56,060
turns out although most healers

1599
01:06:58,569 --> 01:06:57,800
virtually every healer has been taught

1600
01:07:02,170 --> 01:06:58,579
by someone

1601
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:02,180
no one has pre post tests let me just

1602
01:07:06,700 --> 01:07:03,530
interject something here I mean it's

1603
01:07:10,089 --> 01:07:06,710
this is not like some money scam thing

1604
01:07:13,930 --> 01:07:10,099
this thing is 40 bucks on Amazon right

1605
01:07:16,030 --> 01:07:13,940
so it's not like you're really trying to

1606
01:07:19,420 --> 01:07:16,040
engage as many people as you can

1607
01:07:21,430 --> 01:07:19,430
obviously in this in this work and kind

1608
01:07:23,890 --> 01:07:21,440
of create this social experiment as well

1609
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:23,900
right yeah it's interesting to me Kent

1610
01:07:28,690 --> 01:07:26,960
can someone not can someone listen to

1611
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:28,700
this stuff learn the techniques and then

1612
01:07:33,130 --> 01:07:30,650
do it themselves I have a group in a

1613
01:07:36,370 --> 01:07:33,140
hospital I don't want to mention in in

1614
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:36,380
in Delaware actually that are trying

1615
01:07:41,349 --> 01:07:39,530
this so they're in a particular division

1616
01:07:44,559 --> 01:07:41,359
of the hospital and they're there have a

1617
01:07:47,050 --> 01:07:44,569
group of people listening to the CDs and

1618
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:47,060
then trying some healing sperms they're

1619
01:07:50,470 --> 01:07:48,650
starting simple with things on plants

1620
01:07:53,620 --> 01:07:50,480
and such but they're hoping to get to a

1621
01:07:56,740 --> 01:07:53,630
full-fledged experimental design with

1622
01:07:59,620 --> 01:07:56,750
with animals I have someone else about

1623
01:08:01,390 --> 01:07:59,630
to do an experiment at a at a medical

1624
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:01,400
school I don't want to mention because I

1625
01:08:05,650 --> 01:08:03,170
don't know how aboveboard it is there

1626
01:08:09,250 --> 01:08:05,660
how much is hidden but a medical school

1627
01:08:11,559 --> 01:08:09,260
is about to try a replication of the my

1628
01:08:14,589 --> 01:08:11,569
stuff using the healing techniques

1629
01:08:16,510 --> 01:08:14,599
so whether healing can be taught and and

1630
01:08:17,710 --> 01:08:16,520
what is the pre post is

1631
01:08:19,690 --> 01:08:17,720
pretty interesting question I mean

1632
01:08:20,769 --> 01:08:19,700
that's among my publications to assert

1633
01:08:22,539 --> 01:08:20,779
answers your other questions

1634
01:08:25,150 --> 01:08:22,549
well well bill it's it's just an amazing

1635
01:08:27,099 --> 01:08:25,160
body of work we've only we've taken a

1636
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:27,109
hour and 15 minutes here but we've

1637
01:08:30,789 --> 01:08:28,730
really really just scratched the surface

1638
01:08:33,910 --> 01:08:30,799
and as we've talked about there's so

1639
01:08:35,230 --> 01:08:33,920
many research possibilities out there we

1640
01:08:37,900 --> 01:08:35,240
just have to encourage everyone go out

1641
01:08:40,539 --> 01:08:37,910
get that tenure and then call Bill up in

1642
01:08:42,039 --> 01:08:40,549
the house yeah get a tenure up get

1643
01:08:43,090 --> 01:08:42,049
yourself tenure in a lab but I'll feed

1644
01:08:44,980 --> 01:08:43,100
you hundreds of research questions

1645
01:08:46,450 --> 01:08:44,990
because I don't have enough time to do

1646
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:46,460
everything that needs to be done and

1647
01:08:50,530 --> 01:08:48,650
it's it's it's also interesting and

1648
01:08:52,900 --> 01:08:50,540
every time we do an experiment it never

1649
01:08:54,730 --> 01:08:52,910
comes out the way he expected to which

1650
01:08:57,280 --> 01:08:54,740
is the fun well it's been terrific

1651
01:08:58,950 --> 01:08:57,290
having you on thanks again so much for

1652
01:09:01,059 --> 01:08:58,960
joining me today thank you very much

1653
01:09:03,309 --> 01:09:01,069
thanks again to Bill Bengston for

1654
01:09:05,260 --> 01:09:03,319
joining me today on skeptic Oh a couple

1655
01:09:07,930 --> 01:09:05,270
of discussion questions arty up here

1656
01:09:11,079 --> 01:09:07,940
first is the how can it be questioned

1657
01:09:14,230 --> 01:09:11,089
how can such utter leer evolutionary

1658
01:09:16,990 --> 01:09:14,240
paradigm busting research fly underneath

1659
01:09:19,329 --> 01:09:17,000
the radar it seems to me that the Cancer

1660
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:19,339
Research community or should I say the

1661
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:22,010
cancer research industry needs to either

1662
01:09:27,550 --> 01:09:24,890
provide overwhelming evidence that the

1663
01:09:29,860 --> 01:09:27,560
peer-reviewed published research papers

1664
01:09:32,349 --> 01:09:29,870
of doctor Bankston aren't worth of paper

1665
01:09:35,170 --> 01:09:32,359
they're written on or roll up their

1666
01:09:37,990 --> 01:09:35,180
sleeves and get busy and figure out what

1667
01:09:40,510 --> 01:09:38,000
the heck he's doing here the second

1668
01:09:42,610 --> 01:09:40,520
question i tee up would really take us

1669
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:42,620
in a completely different direction and

1670
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:45,650
that is what is dr. Bankston telling us

1671
01:09:51,130 --> 01:09:49,010
about belief he's really going against

1672
01:09:53,530 --> 01:09:51,140
everything that we've been conditioned

1673
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:53,540
to understand in terms of how belief

1674
01:09:58,960 --> 01:09:56,210
works how prayer works how the placebo

1675
01:10:01,630 --> 01:09:58,970
effect works he's got some interesting

1676
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:01,640
theories on where that might lead us but

1677
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:03,770
I'd like to hear your thoughts on what

1678
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:06,050
you think his research tells us about

1679
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:08,810
belief so if you'd like to connect with

1680
01:10:12,870 --> 01:10:11,210
me and/or the rest of the skeptical

1681
01:10:16,230 --> 01:10:12,880
community and discuss these questions

1682
01:10:21,340 --> 01:10:16,240
place to do it is the skeptic Oh website

1683
01:10:24,100 --> 01:10:21,350
@sk EPT Iko calm you can connect to our

1684
01:10:25,810 --> 01:10:24,110
forum and link up with us there you can

1685
01:10:28,510 --> 01:10:25,820
leave comments directly on the website

1686
01:10:29,770 --> 01:10:28,520
or you can shoot off an email or a

1687
01:10:32,379 --> 01:10:29,780
Facebook note

1688
01:10:34,510 --> 01:10:32,389
me and will try and connect that way I

1689
01:10:36,970 --> 01:10:34,520
have many interesting skeptical shows

1690
01:10:39,879 --> 01:10:36,980
coming up the topics keep pouring in and

1691
01:10:42,100 --> 01:10:39,889
as always I just kind of go with my gut

1692
01:10:43,990 --> 01:10:42,110
in terms of following areas that I'm

1693
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:44,000
interested in pursuing and it hopefully

1694
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:45,770
it'll all come together into something

1695
01:10:51,580 --> 01:10:48,770
that makes sense and moves this dialogue

1696
01:10:54,010 --> 01:10:51,590
forward and as always I encourage you to

1697
01:10:55,930 --> 01:10:54,020
get involved in that process if you have

1698
01:10:58,479 --> 01:10:55,940
a topic that you're passionate about

1699
01:11:00,970 --> 01:10:58,489
that you think fits within the skeptical

1700
01:11:03,220 --> 01:11:00,980
framework send me an email and tell me

1701
01:11:05,319 --> 01:11:03,230
what you'd like to do to get that topic

1702
01:11:07,959 --> 01:11:05,329
covered I don't just need you to suggest

1703
01:11:10,180 --> 01:11:07,969
to guests I need you to roll up your

1704
01:11:12,490 --> 01:11:10,190
sleeves and get involved and figure out

1705
01:11:14,529 --> 01:11:12,500
how we make that happen and if you're

1706
01:11:16,899 --> 01:11:14,539
interested in getting involved in that

1707
01:11:18,660 --> 01:11:16,909
way and helping produce a show I'm

1708
01:11:20,950 --> 01:11:18,670
interested in helping you do that

1709
01:11:23,709 --> 01:11:20,960
skeptic Oh is designed to be a

1710
01:11:25,629 --> 01:11:23,719
collective community effort and I want

1711
01:11:28,180 --> 01:11:25,639
to encourage that as much as I can

1712
01:11:31,089 --> 01:11:28,190
well that's gonna do it for today for